register goat vs. non register

[Donna1982]

Okay I've been milling this over in my mind for awhile now (like years). To buy a register goat or not. I know most of your feelings on auction house goats but what about buying a non register goat. What do you think of breeders who ask for more money for the papers. In dog world (use to show and raise shelties) that was a no no. You didn't buy from anymore that asked for more money for papers.

Now if I buy a register doe and bred to a non register buck does that mean I can't register the kids? Also you can't get the papers on your own correct? Like if I bought a goat without papers can I get ahold of them later on? I could tell you the in and outs of dogs and registeration but clueless on goats.

[houndlover]

If you think you're going to want to register your goats, buy registered goats to start with. If for no other reason - you can trace their ancestry and get an idea about their background from the breeders (or their websites) and what you might be dealing with as far as health and confirmation issues. I have people who want to buy goats, and they believe that if I don't give them papers they should pay less - who benefits from that? The goat kid I sell might not be anything special NOW, but may mature into an awesome milker. I want my herd name on that! And for them, at some point they're going to need to breed in order to get more milk - some people don't "get" that, and they'll be stuck with kids that can't be registered, or only grade registered, and then they won't be able to sell them as easily, and the poor baby goats will go to unqualified individuals and probably not have that great a life, or the auction - I know, a stretch, and registered goats to to auction too... BUT STILL, a registered goat has a better chance, period. Phew!

[mygoat]

I keep registered goats. It makes more sense from a profit standpoint.

You can market to more people with registered animals. As with any business venture, the idea is to cater to as many possible buyers as you can. You can sell a registerable goat without papers, but you can't do the opposite. Registered goats will always command a higher price on average than unregistered goats, even despite equal quality. Registered goats have a pedigree to back them up, and are able to compete in shows, be linearly appraised (if dairies) or enroll in other performance programs. Even if you never plan on utilizing anything like that, your potential buyers very well may participate and you'll be shutting out a group of buyers.

Even if you don't plan on being a 'big' breeder, registration makes sense. If you do this for milk, you'll be getting kids every year - and for meat, at least once if not twice per year. You should put the same effort into the kids wether they are registered or not, but in the end an unregistered goat kid will sell for 50-75.00 or so (at least around here) whereas the same goat could sell for 200-300.00 with registration papers, as an example. You have more room to make a profit that year if your kid prices are higher on average.

Now, if you have registered goats and someone wants to buy them 'without papers' then I personally do not lower the price without papers. The papers don't make the animal. But the above information is still true - buyers don't expect to pay 'registered' prices for an unregistered animal, as a general rule.

If you use an unregistered buck on your registered does, none of the kids would be registerable. If you had a few unregistered does in your herd, that's less of a problem - you'd get a few unregistereable kids. However, the buck would mean all his kids are unregistereable.

ADGA has a Native on Appearance program, where another ADGA member testifies that the goat in question appears to be a certain breed. Eventually, you can get to American status from an original 'unregistered' goat. For Nubian this may not be that desireable (many nubian breeders are snooty about americans, and prefer purebreds) though for breeds like Alpine, the americans are not really looked down upon. I wouldn't be suprised if american alpines surpass french alpines in numbers.

Another alternative would be to get a dairy breed, registered or unregistered - or 'commercial' boer does and cross them to a purebred/fullblood boer buck. All doe kids, no matter who the dam is, would be registerable at 50%. Wethers would do well for meat sales or for your own freezer.


Wether or not you can get ahold of papers after sale will depend on the breeder. Some will sell you the papers later, some will not.

[hiddensprings]

I think it all comes down to what you are wanting to accomplish. If you are looking for a family milk goat or pets, you don't need papers. If you want to sell goats, you'll get more money for registered stock. I keep both registered and non-registered goats. My best milkers, right now anyways, are non-registered. And, in my area there is a market for both registered and non-registered stock. I care more about the amount of milk I am getting.

I would say educate yourself on what the breed standards are for the breed you are wanting to get. I have seen plenty of "registered" stock, that just isn't up to snuff. There are so many people out there that call themselves "breeders" that just breed goats........but don't have a clue what they are doing.

[saanengirl]

Registration is important because it offers records. With records, you have a history of your goat's family and the performance of the animals in the pedigree if available. Goat registration is fairly cheap ($7.50 for an online registration of a doe with ADGA), and there are performance programs you can participate in to demonstrate the quality of your goats. If you plan to breed for anything other than commercial slaughter, these records are important. You can keep records yourself, but people put a lot more stock in official records than they do barn records. Besides, the registries keep the records in a database where they can be accessed if you lose your records. Additionally, ADGA has a searchable database that includes performance records that is accessable to potential buyers. If you have good records that are included in that database, people will be more interested in your stock. This is without even stepping foot in the show ring.

I think showing is important for advertising purposes, (it is the best way to get your name out there as a breeder and to let other breeders know what you have), but even if you want to maintain a closed herd and not show, there are other ways to prove your animals that are made available through registration.

[pookshollow]

I have registered and un-registered goats. I show the registered goats. My "good" un-registered does get bred to my registered Saanen buck, and I can register the doelings as "recorded grade", then breed up to "Canadian". My not-so-good does get bred to my Boer buck for meat kids. If I get nice doelings, I keep them for breeding stock. So there is a place for both.

We don't have a NOA program in Canada - which is a shame.

[CaliannG]

I have both registered and unregistered goats. All in all, even for the small, homestead breeder, I would suggest getting registered goats for several reason, many of which are already mentioned:

Pedigree available to you at any time on ADGA's website.
Other applications that ADGA offers gives you information about inbreeding, statistics, etc.
If the goat has ever been on DHIR, 300 day or 1 day milk tests, you can get an idea of production. This helps even in buying kids, you can look at the production of dams, granddams, etc.
In bucks, you can check out the pedigree and production of dams, sisters, and daughters.
Linear Appraisal scores available online also...giving you an idea of what your doeling's udder will look like, or what kind of udder your buck might throw.

In other words, registration equals records...not only of your goat, but possibly goats that have gone on to the Great Milk Stand in the Sky 20 years ago too. I keep barn records RELIGIOUSLY, but those are not the same as a standardized DHIR test. And truthfully, I am not likely to store records long term of a goat I no longer have and whose bloodlines are not a part of my herd anymore.

As for American verses Pureblood...that really depends upon the breed. In Nubians, the PB registry was closed when there was a *plethora* of registered, 6th gen or higher, PB Nubians registered. Therefore, nowadays, AM Nubians are seriously looked down upon.

In Alpines, though, the Pureblood herdbook was closed too early, and that has led to some serious problems because there is too much inbreeding among the PBs, and there has been 30+ years of breeding for looks and not production which has also given the genetics some problems.... while in the American herdbook, emphasis has been placed more upon production and genetic diversity is not a problem.

I have AM Alpines....and most of my stock hasn't had a Recorded Grade ancestor since 1972... and oddly enough, its the same dang ancestor even though the rest of the lines are exceptionally diverse. I guess that one doe must have been one HECK of a milker and REALLY passed on those traits, because most of the high end, American lines can eventually be traced back to her.

Anyway, study the breed you like, and I would certainly recommend investing in registered stock. Remember that whatever you pay for a registered kid in your area, you will be able to GET that later on when you have registered kids...so it's not like you aren't going to get your investment back.

~smiles~ My DH says: Always start with the very best stock you can afford, because those will be the foundation of your herd.

Yeah, you don't milk papers. Yeah, there are a lot of sweet, darling, good producing, unregistered goats out there.

But realize that when it comes to dairy animals, sweet, darling, good producing, unregistered goats come from:

1. People selling lower without papers. So the goat IS, technically, from registered stock or register-able if you go to the original breeder.

2. Determined Doe x Opportunistic Buck. Registered goats of different breeds getting together.

With as few dairy goats as we currently have in this country, there isn't a reason why to get unregistered stock.

[Donna1982]

Okay I think I am following along... I am looking at a LaMancha doe... who (to my shock) looks a lot like my louie I lost. My mom has an unreg. buck who is put together (from as far as I can tell) is put together well. So now I know if I breed them the offspring can't be registered. So that would mean I need to get a registered buck also. The bf has his boers and I have my LaManchas. He use to tell me all the time we didn't need papers until he looked online and seen what boer does are going for. Now hes thinking we need them papers. I am not 100 % yet about getting her but I do believe I am going with my gut and going for registered.

Thanks everyone.

[saanengirl]

There is always the option of paying for stud service rather than keeping a registered bucks. If there are some good LaMancha breeders in your area, you can ask about stud service, and the buck owner will provide you with a service memo so you can register the kids.

[Goat Servant]

Most all our stock is registered. Ive had great off spring from reg dams who arent show quality themselves but their kids are.
Ive sold goats as a result of just getting out there in the ring.
Just recently we brought a % doe to a show. She had habitually placed 5th but this time got a GR CH so sometimes you yourself just never know.

IMO if the buyer doesnt want papers it's their loss, as papers are included in the price.
When you purchase your animal you should get the registration papers all complete at the time of sale. Too often paperwork "gets lost".

[saanengirl]

Make sure if you buy registered that you get the papers transferred to your name ASAP. It is a big pain for those of us who breed to find out the goat we sold last year was never transferred... Transfer is not that expensive. With ADGA it is just a few dollars.

[freedomfrom4]

And the herd books are still open for Lamanchas.

[TwosCompany]

Thank you for asking this question, Donna1982. I've been pondering that same question for a while now. I'm leaning toward LaManchas, too, so we can be LaMancha newbies together, lol. I have one LaMancha wether who we adore and I recently was invited by his breeder to learn to hand milk on his mother (which was a great experience) and that sold me on the breed. Lovely goats.

[Donna1982]

Originally Posted by TwosCompany

Thank you for asking this question, Donna1982. I've been pondering that same question for a while now. I'm leaning toward LaManchas, too, so we can be LaMancha newbies together, lol. I have one LaMancha wether who we adore and I recently was invited by his breeder to learn to hand milk on his mother (which was a great experience) and that sold me on the breed. Lovely goats.

Yes they are a great breed. I've always been a Boer girl (and still like them) but my heart is 100% LaMancha now lol. Yes we can be newbies together lol

Freedom what do you mean by the books are still open?

[CaliannG]

The books being open means that you can still breed into purebred status with LaManchas.

The way it works:

You have, say, a grade doe and a registered Lamancha buck. You breed them. The kids are registered as 50% experimentals.

You breed one of the kids, a doeling, to another registered buck. Her kids are 75% experimentals.

You breed one of those kids, say a buck this time, to a registered Lamancha doe. She has twins and they both meet the breed standards for Lamanchas. They are registered as American LaManchas.

Now, so far, this is the same way to get Americans of ANY breed, but right now, the only PUREBRED herdbook that is open in the Dairy Goats is LaMancha. So, you have registered Americans...how do you get Purebreds out of them? Back to breeding!

You keep your twin does that you have registered as Americans and buy yourself two unrelated, registered American Lamancha bucks. All of these goats meet the breed standards.

1st year, you breed each buck separately to each FF doe. You luck out and each doe produces twins, a buck and a doe.

2nd year, you breed the kids to each other. Each FF doe has twins, a buck and a doe. You sell off everything you have EXCEPT those kids. You breed them to each other just like last time, each buckling breeding the doeling that is NOT his full sister.

And all of THEIR offspring, provided they meet breed standards, are able to be registered as purebreds in the PB herdbook.

In this way, starting from scratch, say a single, registered American Lamancha buck and some grade does, you can have a herd of Registered Americans in four years, and a herd of registered Purebloods in seven years, if the gods favor you and everyone turns out meeting the breed standards.

However, since the PD herdbook is still open, and there are PLENTY of registered, American LaManchas out there, you could, conceivably, simply buy registered Americans and have a Pureblood herd in 4 years.

You might get a better idea of how it works by looking at the Miniature Dairy Goat Association website, because their herdbooks are WAY open also, and they explain the procedure in depth.

[Donna1982]

Wow thanks for explaining it. Well... I think I am going to "bite the bullet" and get a reg. doe. I am hopefully going to go look at her this weekend. And the thing that is really kinda messed up she is almost Louie's twin. No replacing him ever but this might help heal the heart a bit.

[Natural Beauty Farm]

Originally Posted by mygoat

Another alternative would be to get a dairy breed, registered or unregistered - or 'commercial' boer does and cross them to a purebred/fullblood boer buck. All doe kids, no matter who the dam is, would be registerable at 50%. Wethers would do well for meat sales or for your own freezer.

Maybe in the Boer Reg, but the dairy reg will not touch them. If you take a reg Dairy goat and breed it to a Boer you will lose your membership if you try to reg it as 50% dairy.

[dosthouhavemilk]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

You breed one of the kids, a doeling, to another registered buck. Her kids are 75% experimentals.

You breed one of those kids, say a buck this time, to a registered Lamancha doe. She has twins and they both meet the breed standards for Lamanchas. They are registered as American LaManchas.

One clarification here. A buckling cannot be recorded unless both parents are registered as either Purebred and/or American. So a buckling born to a 75% Grade Doe may not be recorded in the books.

[saanengirl]

Originally Posted by Natural Beauty Farm

Maybe in the Boer Reg, but the dairy reg will not touch them. If you take a reg Dairy goat and breed it to a Boer you will lose your membership if you try to reg it as 50% dairy.

ADGA will not accept any animal crossed with a breed not recognized by them. This includes any of the meat goat breeds (Boer, Kiko, Spanish, Myatonic etc.), hair breeds (Angora, Cashmere), miniature breeds (other than Nigerian Dwarf) or foreign dairy breeds. They also will not accept a cross of a Nigerian Dwarf with any other breed.

If you lie on your registration application and state "unknown sire/dam" then if caught you will lose your ADGA membership.

[Donna1982]

Thanks everyone. Does anyone have a good website I can read more about all of this? I've looked and get more and more confused lol