Pelvic Exam Questions

[kmorisett]

I have done a pelvic exam on my doe, but I am not sure what I felt. I am hoping you can fill me in. I had to push a bit to get the widest part of my hand past her pubic bones, but once I was in to my wrist, it was more spacious. I felt something above my hand that was kind of ridged, and I assume that was the rectum. I could feel her hip bones. I felt a open space of nothing at the end of my fingers that seemed like a spacious dead end to me. However, if I backed up about halfway, I could feel something on the bottom of her vagina that kind of felt a little nose-like maybe, but didn't stand out much. I could kind of put the tip of my finger in it, but didn't try much more than that because it was hard to reach it without backing my hand up to the point of the widest part being at her pubic bones again. I don't know if that was her cervix or not? I was expecting the cervix to be centered top to bottom, straight in at the back of her vagina, like ours would be. I just didn't feel anything like that. I also didn't feel any "rings", except above my hand, like I said I figured was her rectum. From looking at some diagrams, it looks like maybe what I had felt on the bottom of her vagina, maybe 4 in. or so inside, was her urethral opening. Can anyone tell me how far in and exactly where the cervix is located? I am struggling to learn what I am feeling.

[kmorisett]

I forgot to ask, how long is the vagina typically?

[HappyFarmer]

Were you looking for anything in particular? Were you checking to see if she was dialated?

[kmorisett]

Yes, I was trying to see if she was dilated and if their was maybe a bad presentation of a kid because she had been showing all the classic signs of the 1st stage of labor before it seemed to stall out. I had been treating her with CMPK, which improved her eating, etc., but didn't return her labor to what it was. I was trying to learn if this really had been the start of labor or just some good pre-labor stuff. She is a FF, and so am I (with goats anyway). I don't have anything to compare her to except everything I can get my hands on to read. I have never done a pelvic, and would love to hear a description of what is where and how to evaluate things properly.

[Laverne]

This may help. http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=18128.0 Also do a search there and type in 'pelvic exam'.

[jill.costello]

I'm confused, I thought we were never supposed to "go in" unless there was a bad presentation, and then to be as quick as possible....I was also taught (and it may be right or wrong!) that if I had to be in there more than just briefly, that I should give antibiotics to prevent infection.

I've never heard of a goat "pelvic exam"; is this common? It's wild because I can not answer your question about the normal closed cervix location! I've only ever felt big, open ones with obnoxious, big, backwards bucklings blocking it......<grin><say that 3 times fast>

[kmorisett]

Thanks, Laverne. I have read that thread and many others I could find, but I am still unsure if the cervix is straight back or on the bottom of the vaginal wall. I'm lame, I know, but I have nothing to compare this first exam too. Plus I am not sure if she is dilated or not, so I can't use that info to help me figure it out either. So, when you all "go in", do you go straight back, or do you go back a little, feeling downward, to find the cervical opening. If I wasn't through her cervix, up to my wrist, was that whole cavity just her vagina? And, if what I thought could possibly be her cervix on the bottom, was, then why does her vagina continue for so many inches past it? Boy, I hope you all can understand me - LOL

[kmorisett]

Jill,

Don't go by what I am doing, for sure. I am a newbie to goats. I was just nervous that her labor which seemed to be going textbook, stalled out almost completely. So, I thought it would be an opportunity to learn, as well as evaluate what was going on with her.

She was grunting, straining, and pushing like she was trying to deliver my hand, squatting and everything. Does this mean I was through her cervix? After the exam, she thought she had given birth, and was calling for and looking everywhere for her kid. Poor girl! She didn't seem uncomfortable after, in any way though, and there was not a trace of blood, so I know I didn't tear her tissues or anything.

[kmorisett]

Today is day 152 for my girl, if that is helpful info to anyone.

[mpete]

Is there a way to have someone come check her? a vet? a friend? I had a doe that seemed to have progression, then stopped... I had friends come out because I was not feeling feet... they didn't know what they were feeling, either... So an emergency c-section later we found the kid was curled up in a ball at the cervix. Without something "Pushing Open" the cervix, it won't open. I was lucky enough to save the kids, the doe was lost.

[kmorisett]

mpete,

Yes, perhaps, I could get a friend to come over. I was hoping that if I could get confirmation on the exact location of the cervix, I would be able to find it, and see if I could insert any fingers into it to evaluate the softness/dilation of it. I understand the idea of not dilating without something pressing on it because that's the problem I had with all of the deliveries of my own babies too. I have read though, that you can check dilation of it by gently inserting one finger at a time though.

[HappyFarmer]

I can't answer your questions, either. I'm with Jill on this one.

If she hasn't had those kids yet, and she's not in any clear and definate danger, I would not be poking around inside her like that. Day 152 plus or minus 10 days is no considered abnormal.

We've had goats for 7 years steady, plus on and off my entire life, and to be honest we've never, not once, had to go in a goat. Horse, yes (horrible experience), but a goat, no.

Maybe it's our chosen breed, but it seems maybe certain "types" of goats are having the natural ability to bear and raise their kids are being bred out through selective breeding, I don't know. I know several breeds of dogs that's happening to, maybe it's the same with some breeds of goats (don't like to stereotype but thinking diary breeds here)?

At any rate I think it bears repeating that one shouldn't just be "going in" unless there is a problem. It sounds like your doe is just preparing for the real thing, and I see no reference to any discharge etc.

HF

[LomahAcres]

I don't think she is dilated if you came to an 'end' at only a hand lengths in. The end of the uterus on standards is about elbow length. The vagina is moist but slightly dry, a distinctive skin feeling maybe a bit clammy, once you get through the cervix it feels like pushing through a bowl of jello. When they are fully dilated it's not something you have to look for. You go in and there it is. What breed is she? On my largest does (saanen) I can just get my fist into the vagina when they are not dilated. Once the cervix opens there will be a tight space about 3-5 inches? in before it opens up (through the birth canal into the uterus).

What you felt on the bottom on your way out was most likely part of her bladder. I go in all the time as soon as they are dilated and never give antibiotics. The sooner you can detect a problem the easier it is to fix, why wait until the doe and kids are stressed out to fix it? Clean and lube up to make it more comfortable for her. Anything you bring in with you will be flushed out with the afterbirth and over the next month as they continue to shed. When they are fully dilated and in labor it generally requires just a few fingers in to feel the first kid. If no kid is felt, she most likely is still in early labor and hasn't brought them up yet.

[Cyngbaeld]

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...at-anatomy.pdf
Don't know if this will answer your question, but maybe will help.

[yarrow]

Location sort of depends on each doe... My herd queen that delivered this past week was being slow to progress.. I checked to see if her cervix was opening.. (I had induced her the day before and we were a couple hours past when I had expected her to be delivering) .. her cervix was not open on that first check.. it was located towards the back of the vaginal wall but down on the *floor*.. unopened it felt like a rubbery cheerio.. with the texture of the end of a human nose... I waited a bit, gloved up this time (I DO NOT normally wear gloves when I *go in*) I put a little Lute (LUTALYSE a dairy prostaglandin you DO NOT want the hormones on your own skin!!!).. I worked the lute into her cervix to help *ripen* it... note: this doe was NOT in distress, NOT pushing.. just uncomfortable.. walking.. getting up & down, nesting. I knew I had time.. Next check her cervix was open to about enough for 3 of my fingers.. shortly after that she progressed quickly.. delivered healthy twins.. mom & babies are just fine...
OKAY.. now.. the doe I just described is a 9 year old doe.. this was her 7th set of babies.. you are talking about a doe on her FIRST pregnancy.. you don't KNOW if her cervix CAN open... she could have ring womb.. any number of things going on... My bet would be with a stalled FF labor.. a badly positioned kid (kids)... What breed is she? Different breeds will *normally* - no day is truely normal.. each goat is different.. but LOTS of nubian lines will kid on day 150 (or 149/151) rarely making it to day 152.. This year has been odd.. quite a few does are going a few days over, then having normal healthy deliveries & babies... I however have seen some nasty looking afterbirths coming out of does that are more then day 154/155... thinner, easy to tear..just no longer healthy looking... past prime, I guess is the best way to describe them..
If you seriously think this doe has started and then stopped labor.. you need to be doing something... Lute will take 24-39 hours to work... I have NEVER tried to manually dilate a cervix for fear of damage/future scar tissue.. so I can't offer advice on that (I've heard of it being done.. but I won't chance it unless it's an emergency)...

good luck.. hopefully as I'm writing this.. you are in the barn cuddling newborns
susie, mo ozarks

[kmorisett]

Thanks Everyone. Nope, no babies yet.

HappyFarmer- I was worried about all that too, but I read so many stories of things gone bad that could have been handled if only someone "went in" to check sooner. I just didn't want to take a chance of loosing her or the kids. So my fear of that was stronger than my fear of doing the exam I guess.

Cyngbaeld- Yes, that diagram is what made me think that maybe I had felt the urethral opening, and it sounds like it was.

LomahAcres- Thanks for the description of what things feel like. I did have a well-lubed glove on though, so I didn't get a detailed feel of things. I had my fingers fully extended and was sweeping my hand side to side some while I was in her up to my wrist, I just couldn't really feel anything in particular. To be honest, I don't know if I could have gone further because I didn't try to.

Yarrow- So glad that I now know that the cervix is in the back on the floor and not centered up higher like I had been expecting. I didn't search the floor in the back really, so I don't know what I would have felt there. I am glad that I know now what to look for and where.

She is a 1 year old perhaps mini Alpine (she looks Alpine but she's smaller).

She was showing all the classic signs of first stage labor on May 25th (Day 147). She was rubbing her head, sides and back on everything. She was staring off. She was yawning and stretching. She was restless. She was pawing a lot. She was laying down and straining/groaning some. She was doing weird thing with her head like she was in pain. She kept chewing on things. She was licking her sides. She was talking. She was very affectionate and kept sniffing and licking me. She was sniffing everyone and everything. She was acting just plain weird. Even my experienced goat friend said she thought I'd have babies by morning. She has continued to lose her mucous plug since Day 145. By the morning of Day 148, everything was winding down, and her labor signs were becoming less and less. She wasn't eating her grain well either, so I gave her several doses of CMPK throughout that day and have been giving her one dose a day since. It helped her appetite and energy level, but didn't change her labor. She still shows all these signs off and on, but with far less frequency and intensity.

Should I go to the vet tomorrow and buy some Lute to give her at this point? Tomorrow will be Day 153.

[yarrow]

ahhhh... I would be giving this doe lute for sure.. everything you described sure sounds like labor starting then stall for some reason.. when my does loose their mucous plug, most times we see nothing or at the most a little bit of gooey stuff.. and I do mean just a little bit.. nothing that would be continued over time.. we just find the gooey glob stuck on her, usually a day or two before they kid, sometimes a few days earlier.. There are sometime warning signs that something is not right.. for one, rubbing their sides/rear along the walls & such can single issues with position of kid/kids.. they are trying to get them moved around & positioned correctly... not to worry you, but babies that are DOA will many times not stimulate the cervix to open.. as will a HUGE kid that stands no chance of fitting into/thru the birth canal.. we had that happen with a FF this year.. she did not progress like I expected.. her cervix never dilated entirely on it's own.. when it finally did, she had a HUGE single buckling trying to come out.. there was no way.. we headed for the vet's.. I really think it's time to get her delivered.. what is she bred to???
((when we induce we use 2cc's lute & 5cc's dex.. both given IM))

again, fingers & toes crossed for a quick easy delivery tonight

[kmorisett]

She is bred to a small line Nigerian Dwarf buck. I was hoping that would make her first kidding a lot easier for her. I know at least one kid is still alive because I can feel small movements still right in front of her udder, but yes I was worried about another one being dead or one that was too big. I just tend to be a person who considers and plans for the worse, and I didn't want my inexperience to lead me to do silly or unsafe things. I will get over to my vet's office in the morning if she still hasn't delivered. Day 6 of night checks - I'm getting sleepy. The Lute dilates the cervix, right? But what is Dex and what does it do?

[yarrow]

YES, the LUTE dilates the cervix.. Dex is Dexamethasone, it's a steroid. we use the (2mg/ml) soultion...(it's the common one that most vets have)... it also comes in a 4mg/ml (that one is 2.5cc's instead of 5) .. it can help mature kids lungs (which you probably don't need at this point).. but it also seems to help the lute to work within the expected time frame (29-36 hours) BUT... when I induce a doe that is already on day 151 or later, we usually have babies near the 29 to 30 hour mark.. I've also been told that the dex helps a quicker recovery from kidding (and I will say, ALL my older does that I induced this year... have just bounced back within hours.. they just seem to feel good so quickly. (we induce 75% of our does this year.. without issue) You can induce without the dex.. but the combo has worked so well & safely for us.. it's the ONLY induction protocol we use. A new bottle of lute costs me $20 .. a new bottle of Dex is $12 ... the best $32 I spend each kidding season.

((I will mention that it was a small animal vet that did our c-section this year.. mom & baby did great.. hopefully you won't need to ever go down that route.. this was our first ever c-section))
good luck
susie, mo ozarks

[kmorisett]

Ok, so I was all set to induce her now and put her out of her misery, as she seems more tired and uncomfortable with each passing day, but I have now been advised not to induce, by a friend of mine who is a goat breeder. Her concern was that the buck was in the pasture with her, so she could have been bred at a later date, in theory. I really believe based on knowing how my girl is behaving and when she uddered up, etc. that the May 28th due date is correct, but could I be wrong, even with all this evidence to back it up?