Scur on a "polled" buckling

HappyFarmer · #1 05/26/11, 05:11 PM

Ok. I've only had polled goats for 3 years so not a lot of experience with polledness. Done a lot of research though and never saw anything like this.

A friend bought a polled buckling from out of state. The buckling, upon arrival, had what appeared (to me) to have the leftovers of a bad disbudding job. The buckling was 4 months old. Breeder was notified, pictures sent, and the polledness questionability came up. Breeder insisted they didn'd even own a disbudding iron and there was no way this boy was disbudded (plus they are very vocal about disbudding being a bad thing). The breeder had the last say and it was accepted that her & I didn't have enough experience to determine the truth. The right side of the head (poll) was smooth (but no hair and crusty) and the left side was crusty with a point, maybe 1/4". I thought for sure he was disbudded but?????

Move to today, 9 months later. This buckling (a year old now) has a smooth poll, with hair covering it on the right side.

The left side has a scur-type horn that is very thin, like an egg noodle, that almost wraps around my pointer finger. It appears to be a scur, everything I know tells me it is a scur (from a bad disbudding), yet friend needs some convincing to re-contact this very pushy breeder who insisted the goat was polled. The buckling fathered 3 kids this year, all horned.

I'm hoping to get some input from others about this. Has anyone ever had a polled goat grow a scur such as I described? Was my friend taken for a fool? I think so but want to make sure. I think she should e-mail photos once again, showing the growth, and get a partial refund as the goat was not what she wanted.

Any thoughts or experiences on this? Is it possible to have a scur and be polled?

HF

mary,tx · #2 05/26/11, 07:34 PM

Hmm. None of my polled goats have ever had "scurs." Just a bump where the horn would be. When I got my very first goats, though, I did have one doe, off a polled buck, that had small soft "horns." At the time, I didn't know anything at all about polled animals, and thought that it was a sign of a deficiency. I know that she was not disbudded. When I sold her a year or so later, the horns were still only an inch or so long, and soft. So I do think it was some variation of polledness. In twelve years of goat keeping, though, I have not seen it again.

As to the goat throwing all horned kids, the odds of a polled to horned breeding are 50/50 for getting polled. So if you only have a few kids, you could get all horned and the buck could still be polled. It would take perhaps another breeding season and more kids to tell for sure. I can tell you that if the does are horned and you ever get polled, the buck is polled, because since it is a dominant trait, one of the parents has to have it for it to appear.

Blue Run Farm · #3 05/26/11, 08:38 PM

I am no expert either, but one of my does is polled. She has hair over the whole area where the horn would be and two bumps on her head where the horns would be (as opposed to the smooth heads I am used to on disbudded goats). Two years ago, she had polled twins, they both had hair over the poll areas and never had a hairless spot or crustiness like you would associate with disbudding. I kept them until they were about 6 months old. So the hairless crusty spot would sure make me think disbudding. But I have limited experience, so hopefully someone on here with more experience will come on here and tell us I'm wrong.

Come to think of it, when we first got goats, we bought three pygmy wethers. They came home at five weeks of age, two were freshly disbudded and one was polled. There was a huge difference, even to us as first time goat owners at the time. The polled boy had normal hair all over the head even at 5 weeks, there was never a bald spot. OTOH, the two that were disbudded had the obvious bald circle and healing scabs from the iron. I hope I'm wrong, but it sure sounds like your friend got taken. Maybe they thought they could pass off a horned buck as polled and get more money for him?

Good luck and tell us how it turns out!

HappyFarmer · #4 05/26/11, 08:53 PM

Well, I do know there are different types of polled - our polled does are the "giraffed" polled-kinda higher nubs of horns with hair-but rounded. I have 1 polled doeling from my does that has flatter polls. This bucks head looks nothing like either, his poll area actually is more like a ridge line, then these barespot bumps that are covered, and of course now the egg-noodle scur type thing. My disbudded animals are flat with no hair (if you move the hair, otherwise it's covered over).

The breeder stated that the scabbiness(& the 1/4" sharp protrusion) was from the bucks (hers) butting each other "cause they do that all the time" at her place.

HF

Alice In TX/MO · #5 05/26/11, 09:29 PM

I wouldn't call again about it.

LoneStrChic23 · #6 05/26/11, 11:41 PM

He's not polled. Breeder is a liar & a crook.....your friend is deserving of a partial refund if her sole purpose in buying him was for his polled genes....Doubt she'll get the refund though unless there was something in writing stating that he was guaranteed to be polled.

Alice In TX/MO · #7 05/27/11, 03:52 AM

Crystal, that's a pretty big assumption. You and I agree most of the time, but one thing I've learned is that goats are the strangest creatures, and weird stuff happens.

Yes, having a scur means the buckling isn't totally polled, but going so far as to make those accusations is a leap I'm not going to take.

Also, nine months have passed. She's used him successfully for breeding. The polled gene doesn't breed true 100% of the time, so his offspring aren't evidence.

That is why I'd let it go.

LoneStrChic23 · #8 05/27/11, 08:15 AM

I just don't see how they said he was polled when he shows obvious signs of disbudding.....For him to be disbudded someone along the line was being deceptive. Unless this breeder got him from someone else prior to selling him, I'd feel that someone was being quite crooked.

Unless something was in writing guaranteeing he was polled, I don't see how the owner can get anything back though, so it's pointless to contact the breeder....especially 9 months later.

Of course the breeder couldn't guarantee production polled offspring, but the animal in question should at least be clean headed with no scurs/scabs/bare patches.

I honestly think I disbudded a giraffe polled kid (one twin was definately horned, the other was questionable). That kid is for sale after weaning & no way will I tell anyone she is polled because I disbudded her, even though the odds that she is in fact polled is very high.

Alice In TX/MO · #9 05/27/11, 09:10 AM

I'm thinking that we haven't seen it. I've had disbudded bucklings that healed up, then later head-banged their craniums into a bloody mess.

I've also never had experience with polled kids at all.

Just my dos pesos!

LoneStrChic23 · #10 05/27/11, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I'm thinking that we haven't seen it. I've had disbudded bucklings that healed up, then later head-banged their craniums into a bloody mess.

I've also never had experience with polled kids at all.

Just my dos pesos!

Oh this I have seen......pen of disbudded bucks & wethers....one had scurs, the other 3 were fine but every single one of them had bashed their heads into a bloody mess....to the point 2 of them actually had blood dripping off of them...Looked like they had been in a gladiator area! I know it looked way worse than it was, but it still looked brutal.

I've talked to Sam & Tonka about it, and they've agreed never to do such a thing!

thaiblue12 · #11 05/27/11, 11:05 AM

Giraffe bumps, that is good I like that

That is how my polled ones are as well.

My blue eyed Nigie buck is polled, poor thing I had no clue since the breeder did not mention it and I had him disbudded.

As far as your friends kids being horned that part does not prove anything. He last year gave me only a couple of polled kids and this year only 2 are polled. I think it is a 1/8 or 1/4 chance of having a polled kid when bred to a horned goat.

Now her attitude and being rude and telling you both that you know nothing is what annoys me. If you know a vet, a goat show person, a 4H leader, anyone who has lots of goat experience and will take a quick look at his head I would have it done. If they say he is polled and that curly-q on his head is normal let it go. If it is not then I would email her and say well so and so with X number of years of goat experience looked at his head and said...... so please stop insulting our intelligence, your rudeness is beyond wrong etc etc. Even if she did not want a partial refund she will let the breeder know what she has found out and maybe next time the breeder will not be so rude, ya I sometimes do not live in reality

madness · #12 05/27/11, 12:14 PM

We have a lamb with scurs that was born on the property so I know he wasn't disbudded. They come from stock that can either be polled, scurred or horned. I had never heard that scurs could actually be a form of natural growth until I saw that flock and now I know it to be common in sheep.

So not that sheep and goats are the same. But makes me wonder if it could just be a natural growth. I have no experience with polled goats though...

mary,tx · #13 05/27/11, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

My blue eyed Nigie buck is polled, poor thing I had no clue since the breeder did not mention it and I had him disbudded.

As far as your friends kids being horned that part does not prove anything. He last year gave me only a couple of polled kids and this year only 2 are polled. I think it is a 1/8 or 1/4 chance of having a polled kid when bred to a horned goat.

Actually, every kid from a heterozygously polled to horned match has exactly a 50/50 chance of being polled. That doesn't mean you will get 50 percent polled with each bunch of kids, but that is the odds for each kid, and over time, it will average out to about that.

I also disbudded my first polled kid. I just didn't know. This doe gave me several kids before I one day looked at one and saw polled, and realized it came from her. I'm slow.

mary,tx · #14 05/27/11, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madness

We have a lamb with scurs that was born on the property so I know he wasn't disbudded. They come from stock that can either be polled, scurred or horned. I had never heard that scurs could actually be a form of natural growth until I saw that flock and now I know it to be common in sheep.

So not that sheep and goats are the same. But makes me wonder if it could just be a natural growth. I have no experience with polled goats though...

Interesting post.

HappyFarmer · #15 05/27/11, 03:01 PM

My first thoughts, and again after seeing the longer scur, was that yeah, this breeder is less than honest what a luzur.

So, based on the responses so far it CAN happen, a scur on a polled goat, though not many have seen it nor would believe it could happen naturally.

Well, I suppose given this enlightment, perhaps the best recourse would to send the breeder new photos, including the old ones, showing the growth, and see what if anything she has to say. At worst she will ignore the e-mail & not respond whatsoever, blow my friend off.

Yes, a polled goat was chosen & expected, AND the breeder was notified almost immediately upon arrival regarding the poll question. Returning for exchange is out of the question being transportation was quite high.

Any ideas on some wording we could use that wouldn't offend, yet get the message across that this goat is NOT what she wanted and has scurs, AND hint at a small refund? If you were this breeder what would you do, if anything?

We're really struggling with how to deal with this as you can tell.

HF

Alice In TX/MO · #16 05/27/11, 03:46 PM

My advice was given above, but I'll repeat it.

Stop struggling. Let it go. Sell the buck if you don't like him now. Eat him if it makes you feel better.

I understand the disappointment. Disappointment happens. I got five bucklings out of one doe this year. Yup, disappointed. My special doe has tumors in her udder and will be put down soon. Disappointment.

Nine months is too long since the transaction with the buck, and he's been used for breeding, and you have already upset the original owner, and they presented their side. Nothing has changed. Going back to them again means you are calling them liars, which can't go over well, no matter how nicely phrased.

It's not the end of your adventures in goats. We all learn and grow and suck up stuff. Watch the TV news about Joplin to get perspective.

Life is too short to pot-stir issues and make them bigger than they are.

mary,tx · #17 05/27/11, 04:39 PM

Why do we not have a "like button."

I'm with Alice on this.

Kshobbit · #18 05/27/11, 04:59 PM

I agree with Alice....let it go. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff.

LoneStrChic23 · #19 05/27/11, 05:22 PM

Agreed! Your friend doesn't have a legal foot to stand on here, and given my opinion on the matter (I honestly believe the goat is horned) I doubt this breeder would do anything but give excuses anyways....basically a repeat of previous contact, so there isn't any point in stirring up drama when no good will come of it.

He's fertile, & if the scur is bothersome it can be removed, so all in all, no biggey.

The breeder I got my polled Alpine from has LOTS of polled goats....got her 1st polled doe 12 years ago. Has 6 unrelated polled goats (Alpines & Obers). She frequently breeds polled to polled as well so I sent her an email asking if she's ever seen scurs or odd growths on polled goats & am waiting for her reply...

When I visited I saw a good amount of variation in polled goats....some were giraffe polled like my girl...her 1/2 sister was polled but flat & there were some kids that were giraffe polled, but with huge nubs...looked like golf balls on their heads......It was neat to see the variations to say the least, but I would love to find out some documented proof of scurs in polled goats similar to the sheep mentioned above.....Not because of this issue you posted, but because I'm really curious.

HappyFarmer · #20 05/27/11, 05:44 PM

Ok. We get it, thanks for spelling it out, let bygones be bygones. Seriously. We needed that wake-up.

One more question, what should she do about the registration papers that say polled? Should she just leave them alone (the breeder filled them out & signed them, my friend mailed & paid the fee) and let them stand as a polled buck, explaining the situation every time he is shown to perspective kid buyers? Should she try to get them changed to indicate he has a scur?

What would you do in this situation?

Lonestarchick I'd be interested in what experiences your friend may have had.

Thank you all so much,
HF