CL & Drinking Milk

[Kye022984]

So, I have heard of goat farmers who have contracted CL from their big herds of goats and sheep because they were dealing directly with the pus of the abscesses. Lancing and draining for example.

Can someone directly transmit CL through drinking the ridden goat's milk?

I guess I am confused because a lot of people say to pasteurize since the CL test is not super accurate if you're not directly testing the pus of the abscess and that abscess-free goat has a possibility of either being asymptomatic or having abscesses on her internal organs.

Has anyone EVER contracted CL from drinking goat's milk?

[pookshollow]

The only way they could have contracted CL from dealing with the abscesses is if a) they were stupid enough not to wear examination gloves and b) they had open wounds on their hands.

If a milking doe had an open abscess on her udder, I would strongly advise against drinking her milk. Otherwise, I wouldn't be concerned.

I had my vet look at a lump on a doe's neck last time he was out - thought it might be goiter from the location. He put a needle in it, determined that it was an abscess - and said "you know how to deal with those, right?" with a smile.

[Alice In TX/MO]

What does that mean? I'm sorry. I really don't understand. The word abscess can mean an infected thorn or it can mean CL or it can mean some other infection that is encapsulated by tissue. For me, knowing how to deal with it would mean the vet takes a sample of the exudate and tests it for CL. If it's positive, the goat is put down and her body is burned.

If a doe has CL, she could have CL abscesses in her udder. I wouldn't want to drink the milk.

Others may have different opinions.

[LaManchaPaul]

I take the exact opposite view of Pookshallow. Enough isn't known about CL to determine that stupid action plus open wound equals transmission to humans.

If a goat is CL positive, one can't know where CL abscesses are in the body. An open abscess on her udder or not, doesn't mean that there isn't one internal.

I wouldn't want to drink the milk of a CL positive animal even if it were heattreated. Disgusting!

[Kye022984]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

What does that mean? I'm sorry. I really don't understand. The word abscess can mean an infected thorn or it can mean CL or it can mean some other infection that is encapsulated by tissue. For me, knowing how to deal with it would mean the vet takes a sample of the exudate and tests it for CL. If it's positive, the goat is put down and her body is burned.

If a doe has CL, she could have CL abscesses in her udder. I wouldn't want to drink the milk.

Others may have different opinions.

I'm talking about if a doe is not showing signs of CL and has it and you are drinking her milk. I mean, if a doe had an abscess IN her udder and not anywhere else, and you were drinking her milk, could you contract it?

[Kye022984]

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

I take the exact opposite view of Pookshallow. Enough isn't known about CL to determine that stupid action plus open wound equals transmission to humans.

If a goat is CL positive, one can't know where CL abscesses are in the body. An open abscess on her udder or not, doesn't mean that there isn't one internal.

I wouldn't want to drink the milk of a CL positive animal even if it were heattreated. Disgusting!

What if you DIDN'T know the goat was CL positive? She wasn't showing signs.

This is where my confusion comes in. If the blood test isn't very accurate and the only way to really get an accurate CL test is from the pus of an abscess, then I guess we're kind of basing the safety of the milk off faith?

[CaliannG]

The ELISA test done at WADDLs for CL is highly accurate. Non-ELISA tests are not very accurate. If you have negative ELISA tests for CL, you have about as much surety as anything in life.

I have found ONE account of people contracting CL through drinking milk from CL positive goats...and that was , I believe, 18 years ago in Australia and it was 12 people. As far as I know, there are no other documented cases of CL being transmitted to humans through tainted milk. Alice might have more recent information on that than I do.

The erudite test (pus culture) is 100% accurate. The ELISA test is 91% accurate. If you don't have lesions to test, do two ELISA tests 3 months apart from different labs. If they are both negative, chances are you are golden.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Kye,
It's a logic issue. IF she has a CL abscess in her udder, and IF it bursts or is shedding bacteria, is the bacteria in her milk? YES. Obviously.

Do you want to drink it? It's your call.

If you are looking for science and a specific piece of research or test results to comfort you or to quote for someone, it doesn't exist. There aren't grants written for exploring such a event and documenting it.

[LoneStrChic23]

If I suspected a goat of CL, I would not drink the milk. Period.

The goat could have abscesses inside the udder that are not visible.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the blood test would be accurate if the goat had an abcess, even if it was an internal abcess that wasn't otherwise detectable. One breeder I know test new goats right after arriving and two more times during that year to see if anything crops up showing possible internal abcesses.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Crystal, I need to do some digging with Google, which I don't have time to do today, but I don't think the blood tests for CL are reliable at all. False positive and false negative error.

I could be wrong, but .... dunno.

[Rechellef]

From what I have read, the actual blood tests are notoriously inaccurate. My vet won't even bother and would only test the content of an abcess.

[Alice In TX/MO]

I don't know about the credentials of this website at all. It's well written; that's all I can tell you.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl2.shtml

[pookshollow]

Yep, I figured that my opinion wouldn't be very popular. My point was that if my vet wasn't having a conniption fit about an abscess, I don't believe that it's a major health concern, if I'm careful.

If you, personally, are concerned about the safety of the milk from your goats then pasteurize it.

[mekasmom]

Originally Posted by pookshollow

If you, personally, are concerned about the safety of the milk from your goats then pasteurize it.

I agree with this. This study says it is killed at 60degrees C which equals 140 F.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...pdf/653048.pdf

And remember, when people look for information about ANY medical issue, the best place to look is at medical sites and scientific tests, not sites where people simply post opinions. CL is rarely ever spread to humans at all whether it is via abscess or milk. It's just not a common spread. There is scientific study after study that says that. Goat World, Homesteading Today, Goat Link, Fiasco, Goat Connection,etc are not scientific studies. They are people with opinions. No matter who it is the "opinion" should be backed up with scientific proof not just words.

[Kye022984]

I'm not looking for any answers which will comfort me. I am looking for answers, is all. Everything I have read in vet manuals and so on all say that it's a rarity that humans contract CL from goats or sheep and that the people who are most at risk are those who run a large number of goats for business.

What I have found in all my research is nothing solid, nothing concrete, and nothing factual about CL. I have found a lot of very scared answers that seem to be more fear-based than anything.

I have yet to find an actual article or piece of information that anyone has ever contracted CL through the goat's milk. Except for stories that the PP just told me. And even, that's through word of mouth. What were the situations of that story? Was the goat's they were drinking the milk from completely ridden with CL and it was just an absolute non-logic based decision on their part or were they "tricked" because they didn't know their goats had CL?

I'm sorry if I am going on and on. I am just wanting to find some logically sound answers. Or, at least, some historical accounts of people contracting CL through their goat's milk.

I guess there's just not enough evidence or research done on the subject to know.

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

The ELISA test done at WADDLs for CL is highly accurate. Non-ELISA tests are not very accurate. If you have negative ELISA tests for CL, you have about as much surety as anything in life.

I have found ONE account of people contracting CL through drinking milk from CL positive goats...and that was , I believe, 18 years ago in Australia and it was 12 people. As far as I know, there are no other documented cases of CL being transmitted to humans through tainted milk. Alice might have more recent information on that than I do.

The erudite test (pus culture) is 100% accurate. The ELISA test is 91% accurate. If you don't have lesions to test, do two ELISA tests 3 months apart from different labs. If they are both negative, chances are you are golden.

I thought that all of the CL tests were not good?

[coso]

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53348272/1...-LYMPHADENITIS

[Kye022984]

Originally Posted by coso

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53348272/1...-LYMPHADENITIS

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. It looks like only one of the people they reviewed was American and "may" have contracted CL from the raw goat's milk. All the other people were either slaughterhouse or has directed contact with live CL positive sheep who presented with cuts on their hands.

So, I am assuming the risk is low.

[mekasmom]

Interestingly enough the human cases come from sheep in the vast majority of the studies, and rarely a horse too, not goats. And I have yet to see one study that says anyone contacted it from goat meat or goat's milk. It would just be such a rare thing. It's a shame that the idea of people getting sick and dying from goats with CL is so widespread. It just sends shivers or fear to people needlessly, and worse yet, it keeps some people so frightened that they won't even own goats.

Here's some more studies in relation to humans and Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis

http://books.google.com/books?id=Utx...humans&f=false

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103120190.html

http://www.inta.gov.ar/bariloche/inf...i%20Coryne.pdf

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/193/1/323

As I mentioned before, in one of those studies, they had to search several nations over years of time to find 31 cases of the disease in humans. And they were all sheep related. Plus, none of the people died from the disease. How many millions of people is that over 8 nations and 10+yrs of time? It is just not a disease to be quivering in fear over. Be aware of it, take precautions, but don't let people scare you with stories about it. Look up some studies yourself and put it into perspective with the real numbers, not imagined scary tales.


added-- It was 8nations, not 12. I miscounted in that study. Sorry.

[Alice In TX/MO]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00057-0048.pdf