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  #1  
Old 05/16/11, 09:39 PM
 
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CL & Drinking Milk

So, I have heard of goat farmers who have contracted CL from their big herds of goats and sheep because they were dealing directly with the pus of the abscesses. Lancing and draining for example.

Can someone directly transmit CL through drinking the ridden goat's milk?

I guess I am confused because a lot of people say to pasteurize since the CL test is not super accurate if you're not directly testing the pus of the abscess and that abscess-free goat has a possibility of either being asymptomatic or having abscesses on her internal organs.

Has anyone EVER contracted CL from drinking goat's milk?

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  #2  
Old 05/16/11, 10:13 PM
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The only way they could have contracted CL from dealing with the abscesses is if a) they were stupid enough not to wear examination gloves and b) they had open wounds on their hands.

If a milking doe had an open abscess on her udder, I would strongly advise against drinking her milk. Otherwise, I wouldn't be concerned.

I had my vet look at a lump on a doe's neck last time he was out - thought it might be goiter from the location. He put a needle in it, determined that it was an abscess - and said "you know how to deal with those, right?" with a smile.

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  #3  
Old 05/16/11, 10:18 PM
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What does that mean? I'm sorry. I really don't understand. The word abscess can mean an infected thorn or it can mean CL or it can mean some other infection that is encapsulated by tissue. For me, knowing how to deal with it would mean the vet takes a sample of the exudate and tests it for CL. If it's positive, the goat is put down and her body is burned.

If a doe has CL, she could have CL abscesses in her udder. I wouldn't want to drink the milk.

Others may have different opinions.

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  #4  
Old 05/16/11, 10:24 PM
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I take the exact opposite view of Pookshallow. Enough isn't known about CL to determine that stupid action plus open wound equals transmission to humans.

If a goat is CL positive, one can't know where CL abscesses are in the body. An open abscess on her udder or not, doesn't mean that there isn't one internal.

I wouldn't want to drink the milk of a CL positive animal even if it were heattreated. Disgusting!

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  #5  
Old 05/16/11, 10:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO View Post
What does that mean? I'm sorry. I really don't understand. The word abscess can mean an infected thorn or it can mean CL or it can mean some other infection that is encapsulated by tissue. For me, knowing how to deal with it would mean the vet takes a sample of the exudate and tests it for CL. If it's positive, the goat is put down and her body is burned.

If a doe has CL, she could have CL abscesses in her udder. I wouldn't want to drink the milk.

Others may have different opinions.
I'm talking about if a doe is not showing signs of CL and has it and you are drinking her milk. I mean, if a doe had an abscess IN her udder and not anywhere else, and you were drinking her milk, could you contract it?
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  #6  
Old 05/16/11, 10:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul View Post
I take the exact opposite view of Pookshallow. Enough isn't known about CL to determine that stupid action plus open wound equals transmission to humans.

If a goat is CL positive, one can't know where CL abscesses are in the body. An open abscess on her udder or not, doesn't mean that there isn't one internal.

I wouldn't want to drink the milk of a CL positive animal even if it were heattreated. Disgusting!
What if you DIDN'T know the goat was CL positive? She wasn't showing signs.

This is where my confusion comes in. If the blood test isn't very accurate and the only way to really get an accurate CL test is from the pus of an abscess, then I guess we're kind of basing the safety of the milk off faith?
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  #7  
Old 05/16/11, 11:03 PM
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The ELISA test done at WADDLs for CL is highly accurate. Non-ELISA tests are not very accurate. If you have negative ELISA tests for CL, you have about as much surety as anything in life.

I have found ONE account of people contracting CL through drinking milk from CL positive goats...and that was , I believe, 18 years ago in Australia and it was 12 people. As far as I know, there are no other documented cases of CL being transmitted to humans through tainted milk. Alice might have more recent information on that than I do.

The erudite test (pus culture) is 100% accurate. The ELISA test is 91% accurate. If you don't have lesions to test, do two ELISA tests 3 months apart from different labs. If they are both negative, chances are you are golden.

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  #8  
Old 05/17/11, 07:42 AM
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Kye,
It's a logic issue. IF she has a CL abscess in her udder, and IF it bursts or is shedding bacteria, is the bacteria in her milk? YES. Obviously.

Do you want to drink it? It's your call.

If you are looking for science and a specific piece of research or test results to comfort you or to quote for someone, it doesn't exist. There aren't grants written for exploring such a event and documenting it.

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  #9  
Old 05/17/11, 07:54 AM
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If I suspected a goat of CL, I would not drink the milk. Period.

The goat could have abscesses inside the udder that are not visible.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the blood test would be accurate if the goat had an abcess, even if it was an internal abcess that wasn't otherwise detectable. One breeder I know test new goats right after arriving and two more times during that year to see if anything crops up showing possible internal abcesses.

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  #10  
Old 05/17/11, 08:48 AM
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Crystal, I need to do some digging with Google, which I don't have time to do today, but I don't think the blood tests for CL are reliable at all. False positive and false negative error.

I could be wrong, but .... dunno.

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  #11  
Old 05/17/11, 09:14 AM
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From what I have read, the actual blood tests are notoriously inaccurate. My vet won't even bother and would only test the content of an abcess.

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Old 05/17/11, 09:27 AM
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I don't know about the credentials of this website at all. It's well written; that's all I can tell you.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl2.shtml

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  #13  
Old 05/17/11, 09:32 AM
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Yep, I figured that my opinion wouldn't be very popular. My point was that if my vet wasn't having a conniption fit about an abscess, I don't believe that it's a major health concern, if I'm careful.

If you, personally, are concerned about the safety of the milk from your goats then pasteurize it.

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  #14  
Old 05/17/11, 09:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pookshollow View Post

If you, personally, are concerned about the safety of the milk from your goats then pasteurize it.
I agree with this. This study says it is killed at 60degrees C which equals 140 F.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...pdf/653048.pdf

And remember, when people look for information about ANY medical issue, the best place to look is at medical sites and scientific tests, not sites where people simply post opinions. CL is rarely ever spread to humans at all whether it is via abscess or milk. It's just not a common spread. There is scientific study after study that says that. Goat World, Homesteading Today, Goat Link, Fiasco, Goat Connection,etc are not scientific studies. They are people with opinions. No matter who it is the "opinion" should be backed up with scientific proof not just words.
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  #15  
Old 05/17/11, 09:59 AM
 
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I'm not looking for any answers which will comfort me. I am looking for answers, is all. Everything I have read in vet manuals and so on all say that it's a rarity that humans contract CL from goats or sheep and that the people who are most at risk are those who run a large number of goats for business.

What I have found in all my research is nothing solid, nothing concrete, and nothing factual about CL. I have found a lot of very scared answers that seem to be more fear-based than anything.

I have yet to find an actual article or piece of information that anyone has ever contracted CL through the goat's milk. Except for stories that the PP just told me. And even, that's through word of mouth. What were the situations of that story? Was the goat's they were drinking the milk from completely ridden with CL and it was just an absolute non-logic based decision on their part or were they "tricked" because they didn't know their goats had CL?

I'm sorry if I am going on and on. I am just wanting to find some logically sound answers. Or, at least, some historical accounts of people contracting CL through their goat's milk.

I guess there's just not enough evidence or research done on the subject to know.

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  #16  
Old 05/17/11, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by CaliannG View Post
The ELISA test done at WADDLs for CL is highly accurate. Non-ELISA tests are not very accurate. If you have negative ELISA tests for CL, you have about as much surety as anything in life.

I have found ONE account of people contracting CL through drinking milk from CL positive goats...and that was , I believe, 18 years ago in Australia and it was 12 people. As far as I know, there are no other documented cases of CL being transmitted to humans through tainted milk. Alice might have more recent information on that than I do.

The erudite test (pus culture) is 100% accurate. The ELISA test is 91% accurate. If you don't have lesions to test, do two ELISA tests 3 months apart from different labs. If they are both negative, chances are you are golden.
I thought that all of the CL tests were not good?
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  #17  
Old 05/17/11, 02:41 PM
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http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53348272/1...-LYMPHADENITIS
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  #18  
Old 05/17/11, 03:51 PM
 
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Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. It looks like only one of the people they reviewed was American and "may" have contracted CL from the raw goat's milk. All the other people were either slaughterhouse or has directed contact with live CL positive sheep who presented with cuts on their hands.

So, I am assuming the risk is low.
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Old 05/17/11, 04:15 PM
 
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Interestingly enough the human cases come from sheep in the vast majority of the studies, and rarely a horse too, not goats. And I have yet to see one study that says anyone contacted it from goat meat or goat's milk. It would just be such a rare thing. It's a shame that the idea of people getting sick and dying from goats with CL is so widespread. It just sends shivers or fear to people needlessly, and worse yet, it keeps some people so frightened that they won't even own goats.

Here's some more studies in relation to humans and Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis

http://books.google.com/books?id=Utx...humans&f=false

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103120190.html

http://www.inta.gov.ar/bariloche/inf...i%20Coryne.pdf

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/193/1/323

As I mentioned before, in one of those studies, they had to search several nations over years of time to find 31 cases of the disease in humans. And they were all sheep related. Plus, none of the people died from the disease. How many millions of people is that over 8 nations and 10+yrs of time? It is just not a disease to be quivering in fear over. Be aware of it, take precautions, but don't let people scare you with stories about it. Look up some studies yourself and put it into perspective with the real numbers, not imagined scary tales.


added-- It was 8nations, not 12. I miscounted in that study. Sorry.

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  #20  
Old 05/17/11, 04:19 PM
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00057-0048.pdf
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Old 05/17/11, 04:23 PM
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BUT....... for example......

My grandson at age two and a half was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer. WHAT IF he had been exposed to CL and then was so sick from the chemo with practically no immune system? My goat partner has scleroderma, an autoimmune disease. My husband is on anti-rejection drugs because he has my left kidney, and he is vulnerable to infectious disease. Yeah, yeah, it's a cluster of special circumstances, but if you are selling milk, you don't *know* what circumstances exist beyond your driveway.

If you have a goat that you don't know is healthy, be careful about who drinks the milk.

I'm not being alarmist. I'm just pointing out that STUFF happens, and you have to be a responsible goat owner. Do what YOU know is right. In my opinion, it would not be right to sell or give milk from an infected goat to anyone. Just my dos pesos.

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Old 05/17/11, 04:28 PM
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Interestingly enough the human cases come from sheep in the vast majority of the studies, and rarely a horse too, not goats.
It is the same bacterium that causes it in all species though, that is why it is zoonotic. I would not want to come in contact with it, whether it be a goat or a camel. Why mess with it if you don't have to. Google pics of it on the internet who wants that in there animals or on there place. Don't try to tell me you can't get away from it either. I have been in the business for seven years now and have seen very few herds that had CL, and believe me you will know it if the herd is infected, by the knots and scars.
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  #23  
Old 05/17/11, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mekasmom View Post
It would just be such a rare thing. It's a shame that the idea of people getting sick and dying from goats with CL is so widespread. It just sends shivers or fear to people needlessly, and worse yet, it keeps some people so frightened that they won't even own goats.
Have you considered the fact that the reason it is a rare thing is precisely because people obsess about it?
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Old 05/17/11, 04:55 PM
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Faulty logic and not a fact at all. Just an assumption.

Most people DO NOT obsess over it. Most people don't have a clue what it is and are rather blase' when they do find out.

Having an ongoing discussion is not obsession.

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Old 05/17/11, 05:07 PM
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.....

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  #26  
Old 05/17/11, 05:15 PM
 
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I have to agree with Alice about do not drink the milk if the goats have CL and You cant see any CL inside of her. U never know if she have them inside becuz sometimes it is invisible. BUT I do know that more accurate way is TEST the pus. If it says postive of CL. Then STAY AWAY from it!!

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Old 05/17/11, 06:15 PM
 
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Thank you everyone for helping me out on this. I am very excited about getting some articles and reviews on the contractions. Thanks again.

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Old 05/17/11, 07:10 PM
 
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What do you mean by this? Were you talking to me?
I think she was talking to me.
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  #29  
Old 05/17/11, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO View Post
BUT....... for example......

My grandson at age two and a half was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer. WHAT IF he had been exposed to CL and then was so sick from the chemo with practically no immune system?
If I were in your position, with a person in the home on chemo, I wouldn't let him eat or serve him any raw foods at all be it milk, veggies, honey...... I know when my SIL's dad was on chemo, he could only eat cooked, hot foods. I do understand that you are very concerned because you are in a unique, very vulnerable situation. In fact, I wouldn't let him touch the goats, dogs, shopping carts, etc. In fact, I wouldn't even take him into public places where the possibility of airborn germs exist. That is a very different situation than a healthy person with a strong immune system. Chemo is a very dangerous thing that kills people. I personally think it is more dangerous and deadly the disease itself, but that's another topic. I can understand why anyone in that position would be obsessed about everything and every possible situation where germs exist. I would be. In fact, I would do everything in my power to prevent anyone in my household from being on chemo because it is so dangerous to the body. I am much more concerned about chemo than the disease it is supposed to treat and much, much more concerned about it than CL. But, that is another topic. I am very sorry about your grandson being so ill. I pray he recovers fully.

However the scientific studies done on CL and the bacteria that causes it are not based on people on chemo. And the studies do report what they report. It is rare in humans, and the reported cases almost always come from sheep.


I just wanted to add that the link you posted was about animals with the disease, not human spread. What part of it interested you, or were you trying to point out? I know goats can have it, but I just haven't seen any studies on human spread of the disease from goats. The few humans who get it almost always get it from sheep.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00057-0048.pdf
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  #30  
Old 05/17/11, 07:25 PM
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The WADDL tests for CL are fairly accurate, by most standards. The reason being, they continue to test for the toxin produced by the specific CL bacterium IF a sample tests positive.

'False positive' means that 'something' triggered the test. Unfortunately, CL bacterium is closely related to many bacteriums that are found EVERYWHERE - and some can trigger the test.

'false negative' is a term overused, IMO. It can be caused by many reasons. first, CL is MAINLY found in the lymphatic system, NOT in the blood system. Occasionally positive goats will test negative because they do not have an active abscess and lots of antibodies in the bloodstream. ALSO, if they are within 6 months of exposure they are still in an incubation period and may not test positive until AFTER the incubation period. This is true for most diseases, including CAE.

Overall, no testing is accurate except over repeated testings. I personally believe that CL blood testing is a worthile TOOL to help resist spread of the disease. Blood testing doesn't mean anything if you don't also use biosecurity too, however.

----------------------------

As for people contracting it only by lancing abscesses with open wounds on their hands - that is not necessarily how CL is contracted. Goats don't need to rub open wounds with each other to spread the disease. Goats only need to come in contact with an animal with it, usually spread to the animal orally or in the eyes or nose. Hence, the most common lymph node to swell is the one closest to the common infection route - the head.

So, a person need only to rub their eyes or not wash up after lancing an abscess. Or, drink milk from a positive doe, who may have an abscess in her udder.

And finally, HORSES do NOT get the type of CL that goats do. You can house a horse with pidgeon fever in with goats and not worry about transmission. Of course, horses can physically carry goat CL with them on their hooves and hide if they come from an auction or dirty farm, so taht's still a concern. But there is two biotypes of CL bacterium, and goats cannot get the horse kind. Cows can get both, so that's scary.

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