Help?! Trying not to freak out here.

RedSonja · #1 03/23/11, 03:12 PM

Okay, trying but not succeeding.

I talked to the person I bought my gorgeous sweet buck Hondo from, yesterday. He's my favorite goat on the place now. Anyway, seller advertised her entire herd for sale which was unexpected to say the least. Since we're still trying to decide how to solve the lack of milk issue until our does freshen in June, I called her up. She had nicely bred, happy healthy goats when we were there in December. DH even suggested selling the three we have now and "upgrading" our herd with all new goats from her (call her "S" for seller for brevity).

I found out talking to S on the phone yesterday that she discovered CL in her herd. She said she bought some does from someone that assured her their herd always tested negative. One of the new does got an abscess not long after coming to S's farm, and it burst. At this point it got difficult to understand her as she burst into tears. I think she said the does came on her farm after we got our buck from her but she had bought goats from that seller in the past, before we got Hondo.

S said the person that sold her the CL goats was very nasty to her when she told them the doe had CL. They said all the goats were born on their farm and had never left it and never had an abscess. That if they had anything they caught it on S's farm when they got there.

So S is selling all her goats, giving up on her dream of showing and breeding. She admits it is her own fault for not demanding to see test results instead of taking the seller's word for it.

Anyway. I spent the rest of daylight hours yesterday going over my goats with a fine-toothed comb (or at least a medium horse brush). No hair out of place, no signs of anything wrong (other than needing to trim feet on the does and signs that all are coming up due for copper bolus again that is).

I spent what free time I had today online refreshing my memory on CL symptoms and testing. None of it is reassuring. I didn't test Hondo for CL before I bought him because everything I read then and now said the test is not reliable unless you test pus from an abscess. Neither he nor any of S's goats had any visible abscesses when I was there and I looked them all over as much as possible.

Should I send blood off to test all my goats for CL now or would that even tell me anything? And who does that? Doesn't look like bio tracking does it.

Help?

-Sonja

prairiedog · #2 03/23/11, 03:16 PM

You can send off test they are not always reliable. Good vigilance is the most important. A test might put your mind at ease however. I am conceren that she is just selling her goats and not culling them as it might pass on elsewhere but that is just me.

Cannon_Farms · #3 03/23/11, 03:26 PM

id test because if they have them on the inside then you would know. I do believe its the only thing you have right now to give you a bit of piece of mind. I tested all my boers before I got the Nigerians just in case and all came out clean but even though Ill show the test results I dont sell mine as 100% cl free as there is always a chance.

**mygoat** · #4 03/23/11, 03:55 PM

If you do blood tests, send them to WADDL. If you call them and ask them to explain their test methods they'll do a better job of explaining it than I can - but from what I UNDERSTAND the last time I called...

CL tests can be tripped by related organisms - many of which are environmental. IF the sample is contaminated by an environmental bacteria then the test could come back positive but is actually negative. WADDL then does further testing to determine if there is toxin in the blood from the 'REAL' CL bacterium, which would indicate a true CL infection. This makes false positives easier to detect.

However, this does nothing for the false negatives. False negatives occur because CL is a bacterium that mainly is contained in the lymphatic system. The lymphatic and blood systems are different from each other. Though there usually is SOME CL bacterium in blood, there may not be enough to cause a positive test result. THAT is why multiple tests the first year (every 6 months) is necessary. You're hoping to catch them with CL in the bloodstream - which is usually when they are stressed or have abscesses. If the abscesses are internal this would be a good way to catch them.

Due to the issues of the CL test, many choose not to use it. In my opinion, the CL test is a useful TOOL if used correctly. Testing regularly depending on possible exposures (6 months for new herds tested, show strings, or new goats - or yearly for other herds) can limit the infection. My opinion is that I will use all tools available to me to limit CL to the best of my ability. It is just a tool though - and should be used with other tools - isolation of ALL incoming stock no matter if their host herd tested clean, and strict biosecurity are also TOOLS that help. I isolate for at least 3 months. I test before I buy and then before introduction to the main herd at the end of the 3 months. I also don't show to limit exposure - ADGA at least has other performance programs that I'd rather use. I just wish boer organizations would come out with a 'linear appraisal'.

Since the lymph system is kinda LIKE the circulatory system, I always wondered if there was a way to get a lymph sample from goats... that would probably give very definitive test results...

freedomfrom4 · #5 03/23/11, 06:45 PM

I believe there is a CL vaccine that is formulated for sheep that many people use on goats. It might be worth checking into. One of my does has had the vaccine.

southerngurl · #6 03/23/11, 08:07 PM

Blood testing will only give you a positive result if there is an active abscess, otherwise there isn't any CL in the blood to give the positive. Actually the best test is when you bring the goat home. If the goat doesn't get any abscesses after you get him home, most likely you are ok as the stress of the move should bring it out. Blood testing in addition will tell you there are no active internal abscesses at a time when they should show up from the move.

thaiblue12 · #7 03/23/11, 08:38 PM

The sheep vaccine does not work on goats. Colorado serum has been promising a goat vaccine for a few years now and still nothing

Also if you vaccinate them I read that they will test positive for CL always after that.
Sorry you have to go through this. Not very nice of the seller to get all nasty with S.
Why is S going to sell them? I would not want it spread to someone else and they cannot or should not be eaten. Best if they get it to put them down and destroy the carcasses.

RedSonja · #8 03/24/11, 01:49 PM

Thanks everyone. Not freaking out so much now. No lumps on anyone here ever, I handle them on an almost-every day basis so I'd know if there had been. The buck has been here since Dec 30 with no sign of lumps. Just finished pulling blood on everyone (and the buck was the easiest of them all, my does are such drama queens!) and heading out now to ship it for testing. Will update when test results come back.

-Sonja

RedSonja · #9 03/24/11, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

The sheep vaccine does not work on goats. Colorado serum has been promising a goat vaccine for a few years now and still nothing

Also if you vaccinate them I read that they will test positive for CL always after that.
Sorry you have to go through this. Not very nice of the seller to get all nasty with S.
Why is S going to sell them? I would not want it spread to someone else and they cannot or should not be eaten. Best if they get it to put them down and destroy the carcasses.

She said she has informed everyone to respond of the possibility of CL. One thing I forgot to mention in the original post is S's new does were in QT on her farm when the abscess showed up, so had not been in contact with her existing herd. The new does were all slaughtered. However she cannot afford to test the entire herd right now to see if it spread so she is selling. Not what I would do either, but... what can ya do?

-Sonja

Laverne · #10 03/24/11, 02:18 PM

If she quarantined and an abcess showed up and didn't burst, then she got rid of the goats, I think all is ok on the rest of the herd.

beccachow · #11 03/24/11, 04:42 PM

I just wanted to give a supportive (((((hug)))))).

RedSonja · #12 03/24/11, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laverne

If she quarantined and an abcess showed up and didn't burst, then she got rid of the goats, I think all is ok on the rest of the herd.

Unfortunately, there was a burst abscess, she said.

-Sonja

RedSonja · #13 03/24/11, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beccachow

I just wanted to give a supportive (((((hug)))))).

Thank you! After the goat rodeo two of my does gave me to draw blood this morning, I'll take all the support & sympathy I can get!

My buck and one doe - Viola, my sweetheart - were totally unconcerned, and my buck was even chewing cud as I stuck him. But Oreo aka Witchy-poo aka herd queen/drama queen extraordinaire yelled and bucked like she was dying, and Little Bit suddenly remembered she has horns and tried to use them. Ended up taking them down and sitting on them to be able to stick them. Oreo continued to scream bloody murder while down, then after it was done acted like nothing happened and was in my pockets for more than her share of the treats. Little Bit just laid there moaning which worried me much more than Oreo's screaming (they are Nubians after all). But she was up and fine and demanding treats as soon as I was done as well.

Glad it's done! Now to wait to hear back...

-Sonja

melissa01 · #14 03/29/11, 10:33 PM

Hey this is the (s farm)
i never had cl on my place until the lady from baker fl. Gave me 11 does 4 babys and 2 grown bucks i bought them home on sept. 12th of last yr.
The lady was not honest with me that she has cl on her place.
She was a very good friend of mine,(not no more)
i trusted her because we were very close.
I bought the goats home and 6 months later i had cl notes on the goats.
When we loaded them up to carry them off, there was 7 goats that had cl knots on them that come from her herd.
I never had cl on my place until the ones that come from baker, fl
i could not tell you what cl looked like
and sonja hondo i think is clear
he was the first one that come her he never had any knots
but you can test him get the vet to draw blood and send the blood sample to the lab to make you feel better
this is a awfull thing to do i hope nobody has to be in this sitition.
If anybody wants to call me and get more information about the lady can my number is 256-221-0232
thanks again

RedSonja · #15 03/29/11, 10:46 PM

Hey there!

Thank you for clarifying things, I was in such shock on the phone with you that day I couldn't remember everything you said. I have thought about calling you again to get clarification but I know how upsetting this is for you and didn't want to push it.

Again I am so very sorry this happened to you, I was crying after we talked. If there is anything at all I can do to help y'all out please let me know.

-Sonja

kasilofhome · #16 03/29/11, 10:50 PM

s
Sorry for what you face. I am proud of you for darring to come forward. I will prey for you. My heart is heavy for you. It is a real emotionaly and money mess for you. I am also proud of your Red for listening and getting the info and turning to others with still showing respect to you but in searching for more information from a source that could help her.

RedSonja · #17 03/29/11, 10:53 PM

Also I sent off blood on all the goats here last week and should get results back in the next couple of days. If you want I'll let you know what comes back on Hondo. He really is my all time favorite goat now. Maybe I'm crazy to say that about a buck but it's true.

-Sonja

Oat Bucket Farm · #18 03/29/11, 11:13 PM

Yes please let us know if you don't mind. I would really like to know how this turns out. i am so sorry for you and S having to go through this. (((hugs)))

CaliannG · #19 03/29/11, 11:32 PM

~hugs~ Melissa, I am sop sorry you are having to go through this. I had something similar happen with someone I trusted, and they didn't inform me...it is heartbreaking.

Again, my deepest sympathy.

RedSonja · #20 03/30/11, 12:03 AM

I really feel that Melissa is a good person and my heart breaks for her. I could tell that she loves all her goats as if they were her human children and I can't imagine how terrible it has been for her to go through this. She was very honest with me both in person and on the phone and told me to the best of her knowledge the state of her herd. She willingly let me look over all her goats and I have no reason to think she was dishonest in any way. I have absolutely no ill will towards her at all,and hope that anything I posted in a panic did not make it seem that I might. I really wish I could wave a magic wand and make all of it go away for her, because I surely would if I could.

-Sonja