Breeding memo only applies for Doelings? Why

freedomfrom4 · #1 03/19/11, 01:21 PM

I bought 2 nubian does for a man who had them bred at his friends farm. One was pregnant. The owner of the buck said she would send breeding memo. Now that she kidded out and had a doeling and a buckling the owner of the buck they were bred to says she wants to register the doe for us and not give a service memo cause she doesn't want the buckling to assiciated wth her name cause the doe he is out of isn't that good. She is willing to register the doeling for me.
The dam does have a steep rump, but I've seen steeper and all I'm doing is 4H for the kids? Dams udder is nice and everything else is OK from what I see. I wasn't sure if I was going to keep him or not, but if she won't register him I can't use him over my other does this coming winter.

What good does this do the owner of the buck? What is the difference between me buying one of her bucks and breeding him to my does next year and paying for stud service? Both of the breedings would have the sire with her herd name right? I just don't understand.

copperpennykids · #2 03/19/11, 01:33 PM

If you buy a buck from her you will have full control over what may or may not be registered (you will essentially control the breeding memos although you won't actually need a breeding memo if you own the buck).

Of course you can also buy a buck from another breeder and have the same amount of control. And if you don't appreciate the "change in the rules" after the purchase was made, there are lots of nice Nubian breeders out there, many right here on Homesteading Today, hint hint.

Bottom line - this allows the breeder to control the quality/quantity of Nubian buck kids out there with her lines. Also has you coming back to her to either buy a buck this Spring or come for stud service and pay again (wouldn't recommend as you may get the same song and dance about breeding memos for buck kids).

Would have been nice (and more fair) if she had told you upfront that buck kids could not be registered. But not much you can do about it now - except start shopping!

Alice In TX/MO · #3 03/19/11, 01:34 PM

The service memo is for the breeding, not for individual kids.

copperpennykids · #4 03/19/11, 01:39 PM

You are right - the breeding memo is for the breeding and should be given to the owner at the time the breeding service is paid for.

It sounds like what the breeder is doing instead is registering the doe kid for her (and she had better pay the fees for you!) and declining to register the buck kid. Not cool, but she purchased these goats after they were bred and may not know what the prior arrangement was between the seller and the breeder. All of the power currently resides with the breeder - but the OP can vote with her money and purchase a better buck kid elsewhere for next year.

CaliannG · #5 03/19/11, 01:42 PM

Ummmm, because the owner of the buck is an idgit?

A breeding memo signifies that X doe was bred by Y buck. It goes with the doe bred....copies can be made to go with each kids registration.

However, the owner of the buck does NOT get to pick which kids get to be registered. The memo if for the DOE bred. If her buck bred your doe, she sends a memo that records that breeding. That one memo which records the breeding is good for however many kids the doe has, whether that be 1 or 10.

Get the breeding memo from her. All it will have on it is the name of the doe and buck involved in the breeding, the date of breeding, signatures of the owners of the buck and the doe at the time of breeding, yadda, yadda....

Could you imagine how much politics would be involved if you needed to get a breeding memo for every KID born before you could register it? "Nope, sorry, I don't like the color of that doeling. It's not the same color as my buck so I am not going to give you a breeding memo to have her registered."

Ugh! The nut cases WOULD rule the registries then!

Edited to add: If the prior owner is being problematical, then insist on the breeding memo and the transfer. Transfer the doe into your name, then send in the breeding memo with the registration application for the kids. If the owner of the buck won't give up a breeding memo for the breeding, then she is being unethical.

Jay27 · #6 03/19/11, 01:49 PM

Are you going to keep the buckling intact? Regardless, tell the crazy-lady you are going to whether him, get the breeding memo and register them yourself.

What she is doing isn't right but sometimes it is just easier to manipulate crazy than to argue or try to deal with it.

francismilker · #7 03/19/11, 02:03 PM

I've found over the years that no matter what the species, whether it be poodles, goats, horses, or cattle; people try to manipulate their reputation in ink. I've actually seen a puppy once that kinda looked like a poodle that was AKC registered to the hilt!

I've seen some breeders that want to hold back a set of papers on an offspring to reserve for another animal that they like better but is un-registerable. That's the risk involved with buying/breeding purebreds. The piece of paper is only as good as the honesty of the person that gives it to you.

LoneStrChic23 · #8 03/19/11, 02:05 PM

Wow...that sucks.

I bought 3 bred does (one ended up open and the breeder will rebreed her for free)....

On my mini I got everything I needed to transfer her into my name and register any and all kids born to her, regardless of gender.

My standard alpine doe was bred to an Oberhasli, her sister was bred to an alpine... I originally was going to take the sister and the breeder had everything ready for me to transfer the doe and register future kids..... Neither breeder I dealt with stipulated only does could be registered.

I bought the does bred, kids are mine and there isn't a single reason the breeder should limit who I can and can't register......UNLESS of course this condition was agreed upon, in writing before money changed hands.

CaliannG · #9 03/19/11, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francismilker

I've seen some breeders that want to hold back a set of papers on an offspring to reserve for another animal that they like better but is un-registerable. That's the risk involved with buying/breeding purebreds. The piece of paper is only as good as the honesty of the person that gives it to you.

EXACTLY!

I have seen this happen in racing Quarter horses...people holding back papers from buyers to use on colts that are Arab crosses (generally 75% QH and 25% Arab) to register the crosses as Foundation for that little "boost" they get on the race track.

UGH!

Unfortunately, unethical practices tend to infiltrate every breeding world. ~sighs~ It comes by the hand of unethical people.

thaiblue12 · #10 03/19/11, 02:43 PM

If the books are still open register the buck as NOA, which in Nubians I think it is considered being "American", just bypass her and her nonsense totally.

freedomfrom4 · #11 03/19/11, 02:53 PM

I think the NOA only applies to doe, not applicable for the bucks.

copperpennykids · #12 03/19/11, 04:08 PM

NOA is only for does.

Bucks can't be registered until they come from a registered American or Purebred doe.

And I think you need to find out what your friend's arrangements with this breeder were. It sounds like she agreed to give you a breeding memo and then changed her mind. Since you didn't actually buy the goats directly from her, not much you can do except try to get her to change her mind.

Too bad your friend didn't get the breeding memo at the time of breeding/purchase.

rootsandwings · #13 03/19/11, 05:25 PM

What paperwork do you have on the doe?

I'm pretty sure that once she registers the doeling, you should be able to send in a registration on the buckling as the owner at time of birth - she will have to send in a breeding memo for the doeling, and she will have to say number in birth and sex. So unless she lies and says it was a single, there will be a record of the buckling. Heck, can you even register kids out of someone else's doe without a bill of sale?

Cannon_Farms · #14 03/19/11, 05:43 PM

If the doe has faults why bother with the buck at all? There are a zillion bucks out there, a great deal worth their salt and will improve your herd, even with a simi high stud fee its cheaper than what a med-okra buck will do to your herd.

Not sticking up for the breeder or taking any sides just wondering why? Its going to cost me $100 to AI my nubian to the top buck of my choice, Im quite sure its a wise investment no matter the outcome of the sex, Id hopefully have a nice doeling for the next season, but the bucklings would hold value as well.

Breeders sell buck kids as wethers all the time for reason they dont want folks buying a crappy buck and using their herdname to sell kids. Herdnames sell more goats than the goats themselves most of the time. My mentor, has a big name for his goats, gets 400 and up for them, my kids are from his lines and are comparable if not better quality than some of the ones on his site right now, I have a hard time selling them because no one knows who I am.

saanengirl · #15 03/21/11, 12:44 PM

Since the buck's owner is willing to register the doe for you, I would let it go at that. There are too many bucks out there that shouldn't be registered and this sounds like one that fits into that category. Besides, you can't use him since he is too closely related to his mother and his sister. Because his dam isn't exceptionally good you won't be able sell him for much if any more as a breeding buck than you could for meat. Bucks are a pain to keep, so why not let someone else deal with the hassle and just pay for stud service?