The more things I find out I don't know....

[francismilker]

As mentioned in several previous posts, I'm pretty new to goat raising. I'm finding after more and more reading here that I'm not doing a very good job of animal husbandry by some standards.

Besides dumping some feed in front of them and keeping hay out, I've only wormed them.

What I'm wondering is: Is there some kind of goat care 101 manual that will give me protocols and times of year to give certain drugs and do preventative treatments?

I recently had my first doe to freshen with three doe kids. (lost all three kids)
It led me to thinkin about how I'd wormed her with Safeguard (thinking it was OK to worm a pregnant doe with) and I wonder if my worming her didn't cause the fetuses to stop growing and die. (Two of the three were way under developed.)

I've been following these threads about copper deficiency and CAE and all the sorts and am wondering if all of this could be a problem for me.

Up until this point in my animal care, (which has been all my life), I've always just thought to myself, "they're goats, tougher than a boot and can get by with a few weeds to gnaw on."

Someone give me a short tutorial link or lesson on protocol of taking care of goats from the time I bring them home to doing my periodical maintenance if you don't mind. After reading about the dull coats and fish tails on copper deficiency I'm quite sure my whole herd needs copper. Because of my illiteracy of different wormers and their effectiveness during pregnancy I don't think that any of my girls have been properly wormed.

Thanks.......

[KimM]

I really like this site for goat care and such. It has pretty much everything you're asking for.
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?board=2.0

[The Tin Mom]

Originally Posted by KimM

I really like this site for goat care and such. It has pretty much everything you're asking for.
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?board=2.0

I agree. I keep learning more and more and this is one site that I refer back to quite a bit. Also, I have been fortunate enough to find some knowledgeable people here who have been very kind and helpful!

[beewench]

Could you also maybe find somebody in your area that has goats and can help you out, like a mentor? I found a lady here when I first got my goats and she has been a great help, besides becoming a friend! Your location may have different dietary or supplement needs than somebody here, so hooking up with local people would be worthwhile..

-=Sarah
www.beewench.blogspot.com

[CaliannG]

~sends big hugs~ YOU are an amazing person, Francismilker.

Not one person in a hundred would go to a site, look at a bunch of discussions, and admit to themselves, "Maybe I have been doing this all wrong and need to educate myself more." More than half of them would jump in and tell everyone how they are crazy, because SANE people know that goats are as tough as boots and can get by on a couple of weeds....

Dairygiatinfo is a great link, and will give you LOTS of information. Start there and try not to overload.

Also, try not to attack everything at once. While you might get everything in order SUPER fast, chances are that THIS kidding season is still going to have problems. Look at a timeline to have your management practices in order NEXT kidding season....or else you'll drive YOURSELF crazier than your goats can do!

~smiles~ Remember, Rome didn't burn in one day...it took them a week to find a match.

[JDog1222]

I'm with ya Francismilker! I just joined the dairy site myself, loads of information there. I admit, I thought they could survive on your junk mail and a few weeds too, that is, until I started lurking in the goat forum on the TH. =o) These people here are the BEST! I'd ask them before I'd ask my own vet!

[6e]

And the bad thing is....the more you learn....the more you realize how much there still is to learn. It's an ongoing adventure, but the learning is half the fun!

[francismilker]

I'm kinda thinking this kidding season will be a washout, (being as I don't know exact breeding dates on any of my pregnant does and they sure haven't gotten any of the recommended vaccines.

I don't own a billy yet, but when I do get one this fall I plan on trying my best to get the breeding done inside a relatively close window so that I can administer care to the goats as a herd and not on an individual, day to day basis for each individual goat. I realize sometimes each on may need individual care, but I don't want to be daily looking at a calendar asking myself if goat "X" needs a shot today.

I also plan on keeping my billy separated from the girls except for at breeding time. When I borrowed a billy last Fall to get the job done, I just turned him out with the girls and let them run all together with the sheep for about three months. Well, they all got bred but I have no idea specifically when. The billy spent more time fighting with my hairsheep ram than paying attention to the girls.

How do you all utilize breeding time to get a pretty accurate breeding date? Do you watch for signs of heat in each individual girl and then turn them in for a day or so? Or, do you turn the buck in for a given time with all the girls. I do know that last year some of my young girls came into what I call "raging" heat and would NOT leave the pen I had the billy locked up in briefly to keep them from being bred too young. I did also find out that a billy goat can climb any fence on my place and would breed any other critter that would stand still!! lol.........

[thaiblue12]

Shots which I only give CD&T is not going to effect your breeding season. I do one weekend of shots and done for the year. No calendar watching Some have not given their goats shots, and I have been reading that some breeders are no longer give their goats CD&T at all. Bo-Se if you are in a sel poor area is important. That you need to get from a vet.

Worms, can effect them, lack of copper can as well, so that could cause issues for your kidding. Lack of copper can cause malpresented kids, sacs that are hard to break etc. So a good high in copper loose mineral if you do not have is is where I would start. Then I would gather up poop from a few goats and have a vet take a look at it. This way you know what to worm with and what is effective in your area. I think safeguard is only good for round worms. Not positive tho.

My bucks are penned alone. When a doe goes hussing up to the pen, other does are humping her and etc I put her in the pen ( if I want her bred ) I see the buck go after her a few times I watch till he does the deed and throws his head back then I take the doe out and go inside and write on the calendar, so and so with blue eyed buck or cream colored buck. Then once my breeding is done I count 150 days, and write the due date. I check to see if she comes back into heat, if she does I cross off that date and write in the new one.

I do not allow my boys to run with the girls for lots of reasons. I have doelings I do not want bred too young, I have sisters of a buck and I do not want him breeding them and I want accurate due dates. My first year having goats I let the buck run with 4 adult does for 3 months and had seen breeding and thought those were the dates and then saw more breeding and change the dates and etc and it was a pain in the butt.
It is all a learning experience, none of us jump in and get it all perfect right away if ever and they are goats they like to keep us guessing and make us nuts. It is part of their charm, at least I think it is

[Goat Servant]

Originally Posted by beewench

Could you also maybe find somebody in your area that has goats and can help you out, like a mentor? I found a lady here when I first got my goats and she has been a great help, besides becoming a friend! Your location may have different dietary or supplement needs than somebody here, so hooking up with local people would be worthwhile..

-=Sarah
www.beewench.blogspot.com

Excellent!

When I first got goats I really liked the seller & asked if she would mentor me. I relied heavily on her for the first 3 or 4 years & still ask her things I dont know in addition to coming here.

Ive never used safeguard but I think its safe for pregnant does, it's just that it no longer works in most areas.

My worming first & foremost includes the day of kidding & once again 10 days later. I use ivermectin injectable done orally.

[goatkid]

When you have your own buck, you can walk him over to the doe pen and the does in heat will come to the fence wagging their tails. I then hand breed the does and write down the date. Some doelings aren't as demonstrative as the older does, so for them, I put them in a pen with the buck and check on them every day under their tails. If they look bred, I write that down. Some times I don't have an exact date for a doe, like when I take one of my goats to a friend's buck to be bred (I raise mostly Nubians so only have Nubian bucks, but I have a few other breed does). With those does, I have a general idea and check udders and ligaments to know when they will kid. I usually do not worm bred does, I try and be sure they are in good shape before breeding and then worm them after they kid.

[francismilker]

The problem for me getting a mentor is that the folks I know who have a goat or "goats" are ol' timers who only have one old milk goat out back which they milk. They still have the mentality that I mentioned in an above post, (they're goats, they can live off brush, weeds, and junk mail".)

When I ask them what to worm with they're liable to tell me chewing tobacco.

The other form of mentor around here comes in the ever growing population of boer show goat raisers. (Boer showing is getting quite popular here.) It's not uncommon to see a good show doeling sell for $1000!!!! That's right, ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS! Some sell for even more. I'm not against someone having good stock and all but I feel an animal is worth only what it can be sold for with it's God-given intended purpose in mind. For milk or for meat..........that is the question of worth for me!

These show goat raisers are very, very, very tight with suggestions. I feel that maybe they're afraid someone's going to get an edge on them in the show ring or at an auction for prospective show animals. I've even seen a wether weighing in at a whopping 35lbs. sell last Fall for $1750..............

I don't have a vet in my area that really specializes in goats. (Although my large animal vet is a wealth of information and very helpful at giving advice.) The others that just have a pasture full of goats they keep for clearing brush don't treat for anything you guys have mentioned. I've heard them talk about giving a CD&T vaccine, but that's about it.

I know there's someone around here somewhere, I just haven't met them yet. For now, keep the suggestions coming. I've got a lot to learn. Thanks all and God Bless!

[HappyFarmer]

Genetics & selective breeding can play a part in the overall health of your herd, too.

I like to refer first time owners to goatkeeping 101, it can be found at hoeggers and a few other places. It's very easy to understand and covers much of the basics.

Forums such as this are wonderful tools also, but can be overwhelming as the topics can be so detailed, so advanced, and so directed to certain locales it may or may not apply to all members. It's not uncommon for members to be confused, Kudos to you for asking!

Am I correct in reading that both the buck and the ram were with your does? If so it's possible those 3 kids were geeps (1/2 goat, 1/2 sheep). If so it would make sense they were premature and would have had no chance of survival even if they were full term.

HF

[nehimama]

Good for you, Francismilker, for asking and wanting to learn. The more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn! I truly value the advice and experiences shared on this forum. I think you'll do very well as a goatkeeper!

[Alice In TX/MO]

The other wonderful general information site is http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm

You could spend weeks there, browsing among the many pages of goat care and advice. I haven't found anything wrong there, ever.

[6e]

Don't write off this kidding season just because you missed a few things. When I first started raising goats, I got a few bred does with no due dates and didn't know what I was supposed to do and back then, didn't know about chat boards. The does, I think, got wormed, but that's about it. I still went on to have one doe have twins and one quads. They were very healthy and went on to be productive goats, of course these were Boers, not dairy, but even when we got our first dairy goats we still didn't do everything "right", but everything turned out ok.

[Rechellef]

I am right there with you. I do have a strong background in dairy goats as I grew up with them, but so much has changed (disease testing wasn't even done in the 70's) regarding wormers, vaccinations, supplements, bloodlines, etc. that I am back in "Caprine Kindergarten". However, this site has been an AWESOME resource for me, plus I have an awesome vet too. Like you, I have a FF who's due date is unknown and have had to reeducate myself on milking, feeding, and now bottle feeding - whew!! As a all over again newbie, I am not moving forward with the purchase of any bucks yet.

So, I'll be seeing you around these parts as I hang here often.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by francismilker

When I borrowed a billy last Fall to get the job done, I just turned him out with the girls and let them run all together with the sheep for about three months. Well, they all got bred but I have no idea specifically when. The billy spent more time fighting with my hairsheep ram than paying attention to the girls.

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

Am I correct in reading that both the buck and the ram were with your does? If so it's possible those 3 kids were geeps (1/2 goat, 1/2 sheep). If so it would make sense they were premature and would have had no chance of survival even if they were full term.

Ah-hah! HF addressed it some, but I think we know some of the problem here now!

Francis, goats and sheep can interbreed, but the offspring are almost NEVER carried to term and almost never survive even when they are. You are likely going to have a bad lambing season with your sheep, too. Goat bucks can breed sheep and Sheep rams can breed goats....but most often the ewes and does abort in the 3rd or 4th month.

Never, ever, ever, ever let a ram run with your does if they are coming into season, and ditto for letting a buck run with your ewes.

Now you know.

Edited to add: DH says that if the buck and ram were fighting, and you have already had one abortion, that the ram likely came out dominant and did most of the breeding. So you might have a decent lamb year, but a poor kid year.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Do not feel bad about what you didn't know. All of us were there at one time or another and no matter how much we have learned since, there is still new things to be learned. OUr first year in goat we didn't know squat about feeding,worming,mineral,etc. They were goats and goats could live on tin cans right?

Our first doe ate sweet feed,got a tiny bit of strongid wormer once in the whole first year she was here, didn't get her feet trimmed that whole year, and had a mineral block. She still gave us twins but she was wild as a March hare and crazy as a loon. We sold her a couple of months after she freshened. We got off lucky that first year. We have been learning steadily in the years since.

You are open to learning and that is what matters.

[Kshobbit]

There is so much to learn and it changes all the time. I started out in 1976 and have been learning ever since then. I am still learning.
My buck stays with the does almost all the time. I keep the young does separate from the older does. I de-worm after they kid, in 2 to 3 weeks later, and again right before breeding time. I only give them C/D& T immunizations.
I have 6 first fresheners and I threw away the calender that would have given me an idea of when they will kid!!!
I agree that you should find a mentor for on the spot advice. Back in the day, there were tons of local goat clubs and they were great for work shops and seminars but where have they gone?
I had a local guy bring his kids over for disbudding. We talked about disbudding irons and constructing the disbudding box. He had the biggest 2 week old Sannen buckling that I have ever seen and his horns were tremendous. The kid stopped breathing while I was in the process and scared the begeebers out of me. I have done mouth to mouth on a goat before but thank goodness, he came out of the box and was breathing. He will have scurs. Goats are a lesson in life.