I lost one today :(

wmsff · #1 03/02/11, 07:27 PM

Hello all. I thought I was past my troubles with the goats. I finally was doing well with the saanen and her milk and today the la mancha died. She had diarrhea for the past several days and the vet gave me some suggestions which I tried and appeared to be working. I went out this morning and she was up and talking and eating. I went out just 2 hours later and she was down.

I tried more electrolites, but it was apparently too late.

For those who have not read my many posts about these two; they were rescues from an Amish farm who had stopped feeding them. The la mancha was the thinner one and I guess she just couldn't recover. When i got her into the vet she was only 70lbs, I could probably measure 1 inch depression on either side of her backbone. She was eating the hay and the small amount of grain I would give, but didn't seem to gain weight.

I have a question about the other one. She does not appear ill (other than her foot which is acting up again - I thought I had that fixed). I have been drinking her milk and giving it to the kids, but now I am afraid that something other than starvation related issues killed the other one. The vet ran worm testing on them which was good, and CAE came back negative.

What would you do?
What antibiotics do you use for dairy goats and what is the withdrawl time? The tractor supply here only has a few things and the manufacturers say a 30 day withdrawl time is standard.
Thanks again

oberhaslikid · #2 03/02/11, 07:38 PM

If she doesnt have a fever I would not give her antibiotics.Did you take her temp?
Has she been wormed and with what?
Vitamin B complex will help with appetite.
If a goat has diarrhea and there has been no change in the diet.It is usually an over load of worms.

CaliannG · #3 03/02/11, 07:46 PM

Definite B-Complex...and if she was neglected, I would also copper bolus and Bo-Se. She probably has a host of deficiencies.

I wouldn't give antibiotics, like ober-kid, unless she had a fever or other signs of a bacterial infection. No need to make the bacteria more resistant when that is not her problem.

What minerals are you giving her? When it comes to rescue animals, I have found that getting their vitamin and mineral levels up to normal is as, if not more, important than getting weight on them. If they are eating, they have calories to work with....but if their bodies are severely deficient, then a lot of times food is not going to get those vitamin and mineral levels up fast enough to save them.

nehimama · #4 03/02/11, 08:24 PM

I'm so sorry you lost the LaMancha, after all your hard work & dedication. Makes me want to cry. I agree with the above posters to consider mineral deficiency, copper deficiency, and very likely worm overload. Best of luck to you and the remaining doe.

Oat Bucket Farm · #5 03/02/11, 08:46 PM

I am so sorry you lost your LaMancha girl. Do you have other goats so that your Saanen girl isn't alone?

wmsff · #6 03/02/11, 09:46 PM

Shortly after I got them, I got some Manna pro goat minerals and give free choice, as well as baking soda. They got all the hay they wanted and I gave the saanen more grain than the other because she was milking. She was in better shape, heavier, than the LaMancha. I just got a mineral block meant for pastured goats, but have not put it out yet. They also have a "Redmond" natural salt block, the one that looks like a big stone. I was very careful to make sure they never ran out of water; a heated bucket.

I recall seeing a post with a web site discussing the selenium and copper in various areas and my location is rather high in those minerals. Copper between 6.4 and 24.8ppm, and selenium at .13 and .49. I recall from raising horses in the pacific northwest, if the hay came from the general area it was a bad idea to give suppliments with the selenium because it was so high in my area. I don't recall if it was the same with the copper. Do I still need to dose so heavily with that even though the natural hays here would have it. Also, i've looked for the BO-SE (selenium, and ? else) but can't find it. My vet has not suggested anything else for them. I have given probiotics several times to each goat.

The saanen is alone now, and I am unsure what to do. If the little died of something contagious I would feel horrible if I brought another goat onto the property, yet I hate having her be lonely.

I just realized something. Last week the goats got into the chicken coop and ate all of the feed. The feeder holds up to 40lbs, but there was probably about 10 lbs left. I bet that had a lot to do with it. Dang it! I've since had the coop door blocked with a large stone.

Wags · #7 03/02/11, 10:05 PM

So sorry for your loss

CaliannG · #8 03/02/11, 10:08 PM

Chicken feed causes diarrhea, but that generally only lasts a day or two.

Yes, you need additional copper. Maybe not selenium (would help if someone from the area with more experience in selenium deficiency chimed in here), but definitely copper. According to the maps, most of the counties of western NY are high in copper, but ALL of them are high in iron, and high iron concentrations inhibit copper uptake.

Use a loose mineral, Cargill Right Now Onxy is what most of us use, or you can get a good, gray cattle mineral that is high in copper (over 2,000 ppm is high) that has little salt. High salt is bad. (Save the salt block for cows or horses, goats don't need a lot of salt)

Bo-Se is an Rx, you get it from your vet...but talk to a breeder in your area first. Since I have never lived in an area with a high selenium concentration, I haven't studied what other minerals in the soil inhibit uptake of selenium and whether boosting selenium levels is a good idea.

Remember, however, that selenium levels in the body that could kill a horse are the same levels that goats are happiest having. Copper levels that will kill sheep will leave a goat still deficient. You have to adjust minerals for THEIR bodies.

It was unlikely the chicken feed itself killed your goat, but it is possible that the diarrhea that came with in on an already weak body might have helped with her decline.

I am really sorry you lost her. Have your vet check for Johne's disease and brucella...if she is free of those along with CAE already being negative, then you shouldn't have any problem bringing another goat there. (Provided that the other goat is also disease free) Most other contagious diseases (the common cold) are things a healthy goat has no trouble fighting off.

Laverne · #9 03/02/11, 10:40 PM

I'm so sorry you lost her. Also your vet needs to repeat after me, 500 times, 'fecals don't show worm eggs in the wintertime'. This is especially so for Liverfluke which is wormed for as 'prevention'. IvomecPlus or Valbazen.
Slugs can carry liverfluke also. So the fecal that was done may be pre-season for worms, which are triggered by warmer weather to lay, so their eggs will survive and hatch.
I follow the management outlined here. http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,2077.0.html It's step by step management just like it says, 'From Birth to Kidding'.

CaliannG · #10 03/02/11, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laverne

Also your vet needs to repeat after me, 500 times, 'fecals don't show worm eggs in the wintertime'.

: I completely forgot about that. I *knew* that, from reading long ago, but my brain did not connect that to the problem.

I need to remember to think outside of my climate zone.

victory · #11 03/03/11, 01:13 AM

If she were my rescue, I would follow all that has been suggested on here, and give her some of Molly's Herbals. I have used the immune builder and it will be very good for this dear girl, to build up her immune system..

So very sorry bout your Mancha..

WalnutGroveFarm · #12 03/03/11, 06:21 AM

Im so sorry for your loss.

nehimama · #13 03/03/11, 07:00 AM

I'm wondering if the LaMancha was so far gone (starving) that you couldn't have saved her?

wmsff · #14 03/03/11, 08:20 AM

I am going to have a necropsy done and test for the Johnes and brucella. Anything else?

Laverne, thanks for that link. I copied it and will put it in a ringed binder I will now set up. "My Goat Care Book and Records" Wow that is a lot of information.

I did have them tested for the worms, around mid February, but they were negative. I did worm them again anyhow.

I will be talking with the vet about the meds I can only get through them, and pick up what I can from the store.

My other one is sensitive on both front feet again. I am again soaking her feet, just the bottoms, in epsom salt. One hoof has the toes really spread out and I am not sure why that is. She tends to walk more towards the back than flat. I will address this with the vet.

A few people mentioned earlier that sometimes you can't bring them back. Obviously I didn't do all I could have, and I'm very sorry for that. I guess I jumped in too quick with not enough research.

Thanks everyone

Backfourty,MI. · #15 03/03/11, 08:35 AM

I am so sorry you lost 1 of your rescue does', I'm sure she was much happier since moving to your farm than where she had been. You are trying to do a good thing & it sounds like your doing everything you can. I think maybe Nehimama is right, maybe this poor girl was just to bad already for you to save her.
A necropsy id good though because the vet can tell youlots from that.
If your Lamancha has seen the vet & he thinks she's healthy, tested for CAE is negative, etc. it will probly be OK to get your doe a friend.

CaliannG · #16 03/03/11, 10:08 AM

Hmmm, things you can only get from your vet that you will want in your goat First Aid Kit:

Bo-Se
Injectable Thiamine
Banamine

If you plan to have pregnant goats, you will want in your kidding kit, in addition to the above:

Oxytocine
Lutelyse
dexamethasone
Injectable CMPK

Things you can get over-the-counter that you will want in your First Aid kit:

C,D, & T
LA200
Pen-G
Red Cell
B-Complex
Probiotic

Yearly tests you will want to do until you are sure your goats and property are clean (you will also want to perform these tests on any goat that will be entering your herd)

CAE
CL (also look for symptoms. A lesion culture is much more accurate than a blood test.)
Johne's Disease
Brucella (unless you live in a Brucella free state)

Perform these tests three times in a row, and have them come back negative, a least 6 months apart, and as long as you don't bring an new goats in, or have white-tailed deer grazing with your goats, you can be assured of the cleanliness of your herd.

For the first year, have your vet (or learn to do it yourself to save money! Only the price of a college biology lab level microscope!) perform a fecal on your goats about ever quarter (three months) until you get a good idea of how the parasites in your area cycle. Then you can cut back to once a year or so.

On the spread toes....have her hooves been trimmed? Does she have hoof growing in a curled manner between her toes? Pictures would be helpful here.

I hope this has been of aid to you.

momagoat61 · #17 03/03/11, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Laverne
Also your vet needs to repeat after me, 500 times, 'fecals don't show worm eggs in the wintertime'.
In relation to the quote originally posted by Laverne which I have copies and pasted above ^. I have a question as to why would 'fecals not show worm eggs in the wintertime?' I don't quite understand why fecals taken during wintertime would not show up worm eggs when the samples are taken and the fecal matter are caught has the goats is making the so called deposit. The samples are coming from at least a normal for a goat, a 102 degree environment where the eggs survive and continue to thrive year round. Now I might understand if the sample is allowed to freeze and thaw before the sample is examined or the sample is picked up off the cold and snow coverd ground and then expected to be accurate and possibly stored for days before the sample is examined , well that just for sure isn't going to be accurate and would be a waste of time.

CaliannG · #18 03/03/11, 11:15 AM

mamagoat61: Like many things, including some forms of deep soil bacteria, many internal parasites somehow know when it is wintertime and therefore do not lay eggs.

After all, what good would it do for the organism to lay eggs in the intestinal track for transportation outside (to hatch, mature, etc, before coming back into the host) if it is too cold for the eggs to hatch and the larvae to survive?

Laverne · #19 03/03/11, 04:20 PM

I love how Vicki puts it.........Fecal results - useless?

Cheribelle · #20 03/03/11, 05:05 PM

Discussion with a good friend just this morning, he thinks feed this year is somehow deficient, and puts out protien tubs for his cows. He sold me on it, because this year I have lost too many babies, and had too many girls kid with almost no udder at all. He said he is noticing the "no udder" in cows he works with for someone else, someone that refused to put out the protien tubs.... He is dreading calving, which is supposed to start next week.