Discussion with veterinarian about CAE

[Alice In TX/MO]

Yesterday (Feb 22) I had a discussion with a local veterinarian about CAE, deer, the possibility of CAE crossing into the deer population (as at deer farms with goat milk bottle-fed fawns), and whether CAE positive milk is safe to drink.

Here's the main points about CAE and what we discussed.
CAE is a very common in dairy goats, and only *some* goat owners test. CAE is Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis. In goats, it can cause arthritis, scar tissue in the udder, and neurological problems. It is not curable. Read about it at the following URL. I chose this article for its readability. There are other more technical articles if you need more info.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/CAE.html

There is no research to show that it crosses to humans. Note that this is not "it doesn't cross to humans." There is no research yet. The vet has concerns that it may cross into deer that consume CAE positive milk.

CAE *does* cross into the sheep population. (This was told to me by the researcher at Biotracking.) So, we KNOW that cross species contagion can occur.

The vet advised that because of what we don't know, he recommends that humans not consume CAE positive milk. This is a HUGE statement, as it is really taking a strong stand in opposition to the status quo that claims it is safe because there is no research/proof that it can cause disease in humans.

One important related issue to consider is the recent connection between Johne's Disease in dairy cows and Crohn's Disease in humans. There is discussion and preliminary information out about this, and research is ongoing. Google it to find out more, but here's one link.
http://www.johnes.org/zoonotic/index.html

The veterinarian and I agree that we simply don't know yet. New research must be done. It was significant to me that he said specifically not to drink CAE positive milk without pasteurization.

If you sell milk and/or cheese, you must consider your customers. What if one of your customers has an impaired immune system due to cancer, cancer treatment, being on immune suppressing drugs, or has an immune system disease? Are you willing to not test for CAE and then sell to that customer base?

Many things to think about and more questions than answers at this time.

[prairiedog]

one of the many reasons we made the hard decision to put oue CAE positive doe down after she kids.

[CaliannG]

Alice, it has been a while since I looked at it, but didn't 12 people catch CAE from contaminated milk in Australia?

I think there is also some controversy about it in China? I believe that the stuff I read on it was old, but it was enough that my brain tells me, "WAIT! There have been recorded cases of cross contamination to humans on CAE....it just hasn't been very MANY."

[nehimama]

Very thought provoking discussion. Thanks for bringing it up, Alice. So. . . .PASTEURIZED milk from a CAE positive animal IS safe for humans to consume? Pasteurization kills the pathogen that causes CAE?

[CaliannG]

Q 1. If a person were to drink unpasteurized milk from a goat with CAE, what if any, harmful effects would that have on us? Does pasteurizing milk definitely kill the disease?
A1. CAE virus is inside infected cells in colostrum of milk. Pasteurization inactivates the virus and is an effective control program. Humans who drink unpasteurized milk from goats may develop antibodies to CAE that cross react in the HIV test.

Found this on this site:

http://www.cornerstonefarm.net/gtcareof.html#caeq&a

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Q 1. If a person were to drink unpasteurized milk from a goat with CAE, what if any, harmful effects would that have on us? Does pasteurizing milk definitely kill the disease?
A1. CAE virus is inside infected cells in colostrum of milk. Pasteurization inactivates the virus and is an effective control program. Humans who drink unpasteurized milk from goats may develop antibodies to CAE that cross react in the HIV test.

Found this on this site:

http://www.cornerstonefarm.net/gtcareof.html#caeq&a

Yes, I've heard of this. There is also the fact that some goats can have CAE and never be symptomatic.

[Alice In TX/MO]

I'm digging further, but here's the result of a quick search. There is a "relationship" between C.A.E.'s causative virus and Human T Cell Leukemia Virus III.

http://www.pnas.org/content/83/11/4007.short

[julieq]

On a side note, they pasteurize the cows milk from cows with Johnne's disease and somehow we're still ending up with Crohn's disease in humans...

We have friends with a son battling Crohn's and it's not something I'd want to take any chances with. He's doing better though as a few years ago our friends switched to raw goat milk (from their own CLEAN goats).

DH is a retired physician, so you don't even want to get him started in a discussion about the ramifications of a retrovirus like CAE in the milk supply...

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I'm digging further, but here's the result of a quick search. There is a "relationship" between C.A.E.'s causative virus and Human T Cell Leukemia Virus III.

http://www.pnas.org/content/83/11/4007.short

That study is from June 1986: 25 years old.

[Alice In TX/MO]

That's fine. The age of the study doesn't change the relationship between the viruses. There are indications of significant similarities between the viruses. I'm not a scientist, but it appears they are from the same family of organisms.

Gravity hasn't changed since Newton.

Re: Johne's
I'll dig on this more later, but it's my understanding that normal pasteurization temperatures don't kill the Johne's organism. Again, another reason to test dairy animals and cull the positive ones.

[Cheribelle]

From http://www.cornerstonefarm.net/gtcareof.html#caeq&a




SLIDE #14:
Who Is Doing The CAE/HIV Reseat?
University of Southern California, Los Angeles

SLIDE #15:
Highlights Of USC, LA
· Humans have been reported to be HIV antibody positive after drinking raw goats' milk
· The reason for this is now considered to be due to CAE virus in the raw goats' milk
· Normal volunteers (n=16), 63% positive for CAE, 25% positive for HIV, 40% positive for both
· Known HIV volunteers (n=10), 10% positive for CAE, 100% positive for HIV, 10% positive for both

SLIDE #16:
What Does All This Mean?
· Nothing, just two cross-reacting viruses
· Potentially significant if CAE virus can protect humans against HIV infection and disease· No evidence that CAE can cause disease in humans (not a public health threat)
· Keep up to date with latest research efforts
· Always talk to persons who know what's going on to dispel any rumors or myths

Wow. Interesting read. In all honesty (don't hurt me) I haven't actually made up my mind yet.

[julieq]

DH, who went to medical school at USC and whose Dad taught there, just looked at this and said, "If you're developing antibodies, then it's a credible threat. Since they're similar retroviruses, the antibody test is just picking up cross sensitivity. The reason the HIV positive crowd didn't test as highly positive for CAE is most likely due to the fact that their immune systems were compromised already by the HIV."

Thanks, but we'll pass on CAE infected goats and their milk.

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by Cheribelle

From http://www.cornerstonefarm.net/gtcareof.html#caeq&a




SLIDE #14:
Who Is Doing The CAE/HIV Reseat?
University of Southern California, Los Angeles

SLIDE #15:
Highlights Of USC, LA
· Humans have been reported to be HIV antibody positive after drinking raw goats' milk
· The reason for this is now considered to be due to CAE virus in the raw goats' milk
· Normal volunteers (n=16), 63% positive for CAE, 25% positive for HIV, 40% positive for both
· Known HIV volunteers (n=10), 10% positive for CAE, 100% positive for HIV, 10% positive for both

SLIDE #16:
What Does All This Mean?
· Nothing, just two cross-reacting viruses
· Potentially significant if CAE virus can protect humans against HIV infection and disease· No evidence that CAE can cause disease in humans (not a public health threat)
· Keep up to date with latest research efforts
· Always talk to persons who know what's going on to dispel any rumors or myths

Wow. Interesting read. In all honesty (don't hurt me) I haven't actually made up my mind yet.

I cannot find the actual UCS study for this, or anything else on CAE on their website.

[Cheribelle]

hhhmmmm.....

I haven't started drinking any milk here, I haven't tested yet. Really don't need risk of diseases, either. I must admit I have been nervous to drink it.....

[Alice In TX/MO]

We test our goats, and we drink our goat milk raw. It is absolutely a personal decision for each family that owns dairy animals of any breed.

I appreciate that this forum's members are able to explore this issue.

[The Tin Mom]

Wow. Amazing and incredibly interesting thread. Thank-you for posting this.

[Jcran]

In sheep, it is called Ovine Progressive Pneumonia, or OPP. Last year, we took in a sheep from a friend who could not figure out why this ewe's lambs kept dying. Well, I lambed her out and found she had a condition called "hard bag" and then looked it up. We bottle raised the lambs and they went to freezer camp. The ewe was retired to another friend's farm to live out her days and not be bred (I wanted to put her down but the owner refused-really frustrated me). When I talked to a number of local sheep raisers, only one had ever even heard of OPP. Seems like THAT would be a pretty credible threat to goats if people are raising them together.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Also beyond the affects on humans remember the affect it has the poor goats who become symptomatic. We have to watch poor Lacey, who is only a two year old FF as she tries to decide which leg to limp on the most while she walks around on her swollen knees. If she kids on her due date, she only has two more weeks before she can have her babies and be permnantly released from her pain. We didn't test as soon as we should have, so by the time we knew and she was showing symptoms, she was only about five weeks from kdding. She is an incredibly sweet goat and we have to watch her suffer because we didn't test her sooner. I don't care how many goats can have CAE and not have any symptoms, its not worth a single goat having to go through being symptomatic. Not when it is so easily prevented. I am so thankful my other two came up neg with 0.0 on the test.

[Laverne]

[QUOTE=julieq;4953953]On a side note, they pasteurize the cows milk from cows with Johnne's disease and somehow we're still ending up with Crohn's disease in humans...

We have friends with a son battling Crohn's
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This treatment for Crohn's creeps me out. http://brightsideofcrohns.blogspot.c...ohns-with.html

[Cheribelle]

I have a cousin with Crohn's. It puts him in the hospital once in a while.