Horrible Birth - all kids dead - advice please?

Creamers · #1 02/10/11, 01:01 PM

UPDATED: She did pass the afterbith
Nubian Doe went into labor, it seems, early morning . . by the time we were up there, one kid was half out - and another's head was out. . .all stuck. . .
She was wretched. . .Kids were large. . .

I put on gloves and lubed up and got the first one on out. . .
She stood up after that and I was able - with some difficultly, to get the knees up and then the second came out . . .

She is FF - so I hope those are the only two. . .

No after birth yet - that was an hour or more ago.

She was mildly shivering (though she has had alfalfa pellets through the whole pregnancy) - gave 30 cc calcium injectable

Gave Dex, probios, Bo-se, and I milk her out some because her teats WERE HUGE AND deformed looking and purple. . .obviously it hurt her and I just got some of the pressure off, really. . .

Since I had to go in, I gave her a shot of Excenel, and I have 2 more days of that, and I can get more from the vet. . .

Vet said best to not do the oxy I have on hand yet. . .so I'm waiting to see if she will expel it. . .hoping there are no more kids.

So questions:

How long before I should expect afterbirth should pass or to give Oxytocin?

If I don't end up seeing the afterbirth but she seems fine, give it anyway or no?

Should I do a uterine flush with Biomycin or somethin similar? If so, when? No until the Afterbirth is out, right? Then the cervix will be closed, after that, though and I will not be able to?

Any suggestions?

Helena · #2 02/10/11, 01:17 PM

FF is first freshner ?? Sorry to hear about this. On the few occ. that we have had to assist with a birth I guess I was just fortunate because I never gave them anything to expel the after birth or for infection.. antibiotic.It seems as though you pumped her full of everything at this time..explain the medications to me. Familiar with the B0-Se but why now..I give about a month before kidding and immediately to the kids when born and then a yearly shot. Keep an eye on her because she will eat the afterbirth and you might not notice it. Were the kids full term..Did you expect her to deliver now. How often did you check on her during the night ?? Give her a nice large bowl of warm water with molasses or even maple syrup or brown sugar in the water. It will give her energy and warm her also. Heat lamp. Just give her a little time..the after birth should come pretty soon..not hours..in my experience.

pygmybabies · #3 02/10/11, 01:19 PM

I am really understanding what you went through, Muffin passed her afterbirth sometime before 11pm and dead kids were out by 630pm, so I would give it a little while yet, but I am still new so I dont know exact time. I am sorry you had to go through that. Hope momma is ok.

Rockytopsis · #4 02/10/11, 01:22 PM

Sorry about the babies. I have noticed different times with passing the afterbirth. Just keep a eye on her and let us know how she does.
Nancy

KimM · #5 02/10/11, 01:27 PM

Did you go in to feel if there were anymore kids? If she kidded early this morning and hasn't passed the placenta by 2 pm, I'd have given the Oxytocin while her cervix was well open - and still would now. I believe the Goat Medicine book says they can go up to 12 hours but I don't wait that long. Milking her will also stimulate oxytocin and make her uterus contract to help expel anything else in there.
What was the Dex for?

Creamers · #6 02/10/11, 01:38 PM

I don't know why I said Dex. . .banamine. . .just thinking brown glass bottles - and it was banamine for pain.

I gave BO-SE - seems to always help when there is overall weakness, and I hadn't given her any in about 6 months. . .seems to perk them up.

She did just pass the afterbirth, thank God.

Calcium Gluconate for the shivering. . .since it could be milk fever, and sadly, there is a line history of milk fever. . .

The excenel is the antibiotic. . .since I do not know how long the kids were half out. . .and since i had to go in to pull them. . .

I've heard some folks do a flush inside with an antibiotic. . .not sure if I should. . .

I could not get my hand down any further - which wasn't that far - to feel more kids. . .

Alice In TX/MO · #7 02/10/11, 02:04 PM

I would not flush. You didn't go in far.

I'd milk her out gently.

pygmybabies · #8 02/10/11, 02:07 PM

OUr vet did use an antibiotic on the inside, but he went in far. I also have been giving her calcium paste with vit B in it, I have been milking her, and that is actually getting better.

Creamers · #9 02/10/11, 02:08 PM

I went in about 4-5 times never farther than mid forearm.

I have calcium paste . . .I need to go buy a gun for it - it is the huge cow tube.

Her teats are a MESS - we are trying to milk though - hate to stress her

Cheribelle · #10 02/10/11, 02:11 PM

Poor baby. Gentle milking sounds like the best advice to me.

pygmybabies · #11 02/10/11, 02:24 PM

yeah, i agree, i didnt do anything the first night, but then yesterday barely milked her as she was so swollen and sore, I did it probably 4 times yesterday, then last night husband lifter her carefully on milk stand and we milked out 2 cups of colostrum, she doesnt mind at all. I am actually starting to see why every one said to do that after all she went through, she seems to look forward to it, and hang out with me. I milked a little this morning cause it was just too cold and the hand milker thing wasnt working right. But around 2 I got another 2 cups of colostrum and she seemed as happy as she could be. Gave her some more cal/vit b and molassed water and she was happy to go back in her warm pen.
I bought the cal/vit B from jeffers, you got one free if you bought 2 probios jars, so they are not so huge.

nehimama · #12 02/10/11, 02:59 PM

Creamers, I'm so sorry you and your doe went through this. Sounds to me like you did all that you could, and I would not attempt a uterine flush at this time. Keep up with the antibiotics, and a good shot of Vitamin B Complex sure wouldn't hurt after all the stress. I also would try to milk her out. My heart hurts for you.

Creamers · #13 02/10/11, 03:42 PM

Should I just thiamine or the B complex - I have both?

farmerjohn · #14 02/10/11, 04:15 PM

It would be best to get her milked out as much as possible. Do not put heat to her udder of any kind as that will draw more milk in nor to rub her or push on her udder as a baby would. Just milk slow and gently. As the milk gets out of the udder the pressure is relieved both on the tissue and on the blood veins. THen you could do a good rub with an udder lotion if you have it. After milking that will help her udder to feel better and less likely any mastitis problems or a lumpy udder developing.

Pony · #15 02/10/11, 04:18 PM

Dang it, Creamers, I am so sorry that happened.

There must be something in the water...

As for what to do now... I wouldn't flush. Just let things go for now. Her body is working to expel whatever is left in there, and milking her out will stim the uterus and keep things moving.

If I were to choose one or the other between straight thiamine and B complex, I'd go with the B.

And for the owner, maybe a glass of red wine, a bit of cheese, and some bread?

Oat Bucket Farm · #16 02/10/11, 04:18 PM

So sorry you lost the babies. Sounds like you did everything you could. I wouldn't flush her uterus at this point. I would give the b-complex. Bo-se was a good because it will help boost her immune system. Definitely milk her out. It will be better for her.

Backfourty,MI. · #17 02/10/11, 04:42 PM

I am so sorry you lost the babies, such a bummer! Don't do the flush & milking her will actually make her feel better.
Make sure she has plenty of good hay & alfafa pellets too if you have them.

I always give my girls electrolyte water after they kid, the rhomemade recipe I use is:

1 liter warm water
2 TBSP honey or sugar
1/4 tsp. baking soda
1/4 tsp. salt

They usually gulp this right down.

The Tin Mom · #18 02/10/11, 05:18 PM

So sorry to hear this. (((Hugs)))

Ranger · #19 02/10/11, 07:09 PM

No advice---everyone here has already given great advice. I just wanted to say how sorry I am, and I hope your girl feels better fast.

KimM · #20 02/10/11, 07:38 PM

So sorry for your loss. How's your doe doing now?