Here is my Horrible experience today...

pygmybabies · #1 02/09/11, 12:13 AM

Ok so here is the story, if you remembered I posted about 12 central time that muffin had lost her ligs and still didnt think my goats were ever gonna have any babies, etc, so I ate lunch and went back out to check on them, muffin and zoe were talking to each other now, but they werent a few minutes before that as I had the monitor on and so I figured it was just because I came out there, but muffin had been hanging out in the dog house, then she came out and stood in the corner, she squated to pee and of course I had to take a peek just to be sure well the pee didnt drip off it hung there, I thought ...weird...then it kinda started stringing out just a little maybe 1/4 inch, so I called my husband and said I think it is time, he said are you sure and i said no. hung up the phone (in the barn) walked back to her about 25 feet or so, and big long goo! Called him back and said YES its time, that was at about 2 central time, we got her in the kidding pen and got out all the towells emergency kit, sweaters, doggie pottie pads, feeds sacks, yes I was prepared, well I thought I was prepared. After the first foot came out we didnt see another, so we went in and moved it into position, she pushed and still nothing, so he checked and the head was positioned correctly, and so he tried to help her when she pushed, nothing would budge, so this all started at 2:15 and at 3 I said this is too long, this is not correct! SO we got out the kid puller, tried that, well it broke! finally 3:30 I think)and posted here, called vet, he said you have to go in and grab the head, I said will that hurt the baby, he said I am sure the baby is already dead, so my husband had to leave real quick and I went in (wasnt sure I could) wasnt near as bad as I thought it would be, and tried to pull the baby out, I took emilys suggestion and wrapped a towel around the feet. I got the legs out further that way , but it still wasnt coming out, I told my husband that the vet said that he is a big guy and that he could do it and that my husband could do it,
My husband said I have done all i can do call the vet and have him come out. My poor husband really tried for so long and so hard.
So I called the vet back and said we cant do it, so they said they would come as soon as they could, which was 530 and it was the other vet , which was fine, He came in and tried and tried and even he couldnt get it out, the baby was dead but we had two options, now when i tell you what they were please dont get mad at him, as he was very compassionate and concerned.
1- load her up take her to clinic 40min away do a C-section, and spend hundreds or so.
2- cut off the dead babies legs, and make more room for the head.
Husband says well lets just try to save her if we can,
so we opted to cut off the legs, which did make more room for the head, but it still wouldnt come out, he tied a leg snare (in my kit) to the head and nope still no baby, (it broke too)he then got a dog leash sterallized it and went in with that and I didnt see it but finally it came out. It was HUGE, and Tito was the dad, and he isnt much bigger than muffin. SO yes there is a second baby, so he worked to get it out, guess what? Same thing head too big for muffin cant come out, had to cut its legs also, same issues. An hour later, he said " you want to see a grown man cry"? If there is a third one in there. Thank goodness there wasnt!! He worked with her, gave her some shots and antibiotics and checked her out some more. Gave her some water with some calcium in it and she got right up and drank it. I know she might not make it and I understand that but I will do all I can to help her, both babies were large bucklings weighing probably 8-9 lbs each. So for my first time with assisting a birth, I would say that was about as horrible as it gets, The only thing worse would have been I guess if Muffin would have died during it.
So now I am completely worried about Zoe and COcoa as they are smaller than her. Dr said he can do a c-section once labor starts. I might consider it. So here is what I learned today
1- have an emergency kit ready. even if everyone says you most likely wont need it, I did and I thought I had way too much, and I did,
2-kid pullers and leg snare dont always work
3-wanting my goats to hurry up and go in labor is not quite as exciting now
4-never have babies born when it is 8 degrees outside
5 always have a heat lamp, blankets, lots of towels, gloves etc.
6-never go out of town, or even leave your house if your goat is close or you think it is close.
7-I actually can put my hand inside a goat
8-have a great husband who will do anything for you
9- have friends on here who were ready to help and even give me their phone numbers to call them!
Muffin is resting now, and time will tell how she does, zoe is going nuts to be with her, so we just put them together and I think that is what she needed she is acting like herself (well kinda) Poor thing had so many hands up her today she will never be herself!

Things I need help with
I gave her calcium in water, any other suggestions:
Dr gave her a 4 day antibiotic and banamine
another ? of course her udder is super huge now, so do I leave her alone and let it dry up? milk her out some so she is not uncomfortable, I just dont want to take away energy from her healing time.

Thanks for all your support, it was the first place I came to for help.

ann in tn · #2 02/09/11, 12:21 AM

I do not know anything about goats. Just finished school work and had to sign in to check on this poor baby. I am so sorry for all you went through and sincerely hope that muffin makes it. I have been following her through your posts.

Here is also praying that those bucklings were two of a kind and the others fair better in their labors.

Gaby Rose · #3 02/09/11, 12:23 AM

I’m so, so sorry…I want you to know that I have already learned from your story. I’m really going to stock up on everything that might be needed at kidding time. I hope someone can help you with your questions soon. I’ll be praying for Muffin’s recovery. So sorry you had to have that experience.

wintrrwolf · #4 02/09/11, 12:35 AM

After thinking about it ... IMO
I know your original purpose when you got muffin was to milk her, but since she hasn't been milked before I feel the stress of "learning" might be more detrimental to her health then the benefits of having the colostrum on ice.

chamoisee · #5 02/09/11, 12:36 AM

Wow! You guys are gutsy and you deserve a huge round of applause for doing the best you could. I am in awe. Seriously! It wasn't a good outcome, but you did something instead of standing there wringing your hands until she died. I really, really admire that.

Now for questions: what breed was this doe, and what kind of buck was she bred to, and what was she eating during her pregnancy?

If she is any kind of a dairy goat, I would milk her twice a day. She will bond to you and it will help her get over th eloss of her kids. Milking is actually good for her because it helps the uterine to contract back down to the size it should be.

farmerjohn · #6 02/09/11, 12:45 AM

Hugs to you pygmybabies and what an experience. May nothing in the future come even close to this for you. Prayers that Muffin will be well and safe. I am so sorry about the babies and they seemed awfully large. Could have been something gone awry with the genetics.

In my opinion , and I am no expert, I would milk her out for several days and keep the colostrum for future use if needed or even use her milk to feed to other animals and to give her some relief for a period of time. Would maybe keep her from feeling uncomfortable and in pain if she was getting real full with milk. Many animals get such a pleasureable experience in nursing and it helps the womb go back in shape.

Then maybe in a week or so start cutting back and letting her dry up. I know in the cold weather it might be tough but it seems to me that 2 weeks would be a good point to cut back. It says somewhere here that the middle of February is to be alot warmer and that would be good for all.

We had to pull babies with a AGHA and her first litter. FIrst baby came out very large but dead. Second one took awhile , also large and dead. No vets here at all for hogs or goats. Got a vet over 50 miles away to talk us through pulling. Horrible experience. Two more babies and they were bigger than the first and had to be removed in pieces as well. Weather was fairly decent and gilt was a true sweetheart through it all but oh so sad and she knew there was something wrong and missing. It took hours to assist the last two. She recouped well and recently gave us 8 babies. She is very small built but is doing well and is carrying a third litter.

God Bless and prayers for Muffins continued recovery and you and DH's efforts to assist one of God's Creatures.

Lizza · #7 02/09/11, 12:57 AM

Gosh, that is about as bad as it gets, really, usually things don't go like this. Hugs are with you and your hubby.

Yes, you need to milk her, freeze the colostrum for the future. Milk her twice a day to begin with and then after a few weeks you can try to go down to just once a day and then you can decide if you want to keep her in milk.

Are the other two does bred to the same buck? What are all their breeds (including buck)? Are the other two also first fresheners?

Again, hugs, hugs, and hugs!

victory · #8 02/09/11, 02:50 AM

Wow, you poor thing! Poor hubby, Vet, goat. I have heard about cutting babies out, but never had to, hope
it never happens again in this lifetime!!
Bless your heart!! Ad I truly hope your other does kid fine!!

goatkid · #9 02/09/11, 02:53 AM

Sorry you had a hard time and lost the kids. I would freeze the colostrum for future kids. Milking the doe shouldn't hurt her. It should actually be good for her in stimulating oxytocin so she'll clean out properly. Just because she had large kids and a difficult labor doesn't necessarily mean the other does will.

Pony · #10 02/09/11, 03:31 AM

What an absolute nightmare. I am so very sorry, PB.

You and your hubby are a great team. That's one bright spot in all this. The other is that you still have Muffin. But such a harrowing experience for your first time. Oh, dear!!

I'd go ahead and milk Muffin. She needs that stimulation to get her innards working and her body back into shape. And as has been suggested, freeze that colostrum for future use. You never know when you may need it.

Prayers that ALL heal and get over this soon. Good weather is coming our way, and better times with it.

{hugs} You done good.

LFRJ · #11 02/09/11, 05:06 AM

WOw. I'd be so overwhelmed and shook up, I don't even know if I COULD write about the experience. So sorry this has happened. You were looking so forward to this too. On the bright side, I believe you have one more kidding coming up, yes? If so, feel empowered at least. You've been through just about the worst and came through it. Lightening doesn't typically strike twice. Hugs.

KimM · #12 02/09/11, 05:26 AM

I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I know what you mean about labor not being "exciting". I'm more anxious until they're born and everything is good, only then do I get excited. But you did save Muffin by taking her in. Hope you get some much needed rest now. (((HUGS)))

Alice In TX/MO · #13 02/09/11, 06:34 AM

Milking her at least twice a day would be the best thing for her healing. Her body is designed for making milk and responding to the milking process (or feeding kids) with hormones and uterine contractions for healing.

If she's a milk goat, let her be a milk goat. Best thing for both of you! She will bond even more closely with you through the experience of milking.

I am so sorry this happened. Wishing the best for her recovery.

You and hubby (and the vet) did everything possible.

Huggs,
Alice

ShyAnne · #14 02/09/11, 06:43 AM

So sorry to hear you had to go through this, and Muffin too. I sure hope she gets to feeling better soon.
I agree with milking her. I really will help her feel better.
Best wishes for your next 2 does, hope kidding goes normally for you.

CarolT · #15 02/09/11, 06:47 AM

Words are inadequate at times like these. You, your hubby and the vet did everything possible and it still was a sad outcome. It happens, but try to take comfort knowing you did everything you could. And the fact that ou still have Muffin. Sometimes genetics will do that to you (throwbacks). I would ask if an ultrasound might could estimate size on the other does? That might give you a better idea if you need c-sections or not. Just a thought...

6e · #16 02/09/11, 07:21 AM

As I recall from another thread Muffin was a Pygmy/Nigerian Dwarf cross.

I echo the others in my sympathy that you had to go through all that. What a nightmarish experience. I am amazed at how well you kept it together and were able to pull her through. Good job to you and your husband and vet! I would milk her out for just a while and then you can dry her off. If you don't want to do the whole milk stand thing, I've milked many a goat just sitting on the ground.

nehimama · #17 02/09/11, 08:47 AM

Pygmy Babies, I'm so sorry that this nightmare was your first kidding experience. Praying for healing for Muffin and (((hugs))) for you and hubby. And (((hugs))) for the vet, too.

Our Little Farm · #18 02/09/11, 09:02 AM

Oh my goodness I am so sorry, what a nightmare of an expereince.

My DH and I worked together to pull a dead buckling from a friends doe 2 years ago, it was very very hard work as it was bloated. Thank goodness the doe survived, and she went on to deliver twins the next year. If I had to do what you had to do, I think my head would still be spinning and my heart aching.

What breed was the doe and the buck?

pygmybabies · #19 02/09/11, 09:10 AM

Yes she is Nigeria/pygmy cross.....tito is too....but not related....after I said they were 8/9 pounds husband says maybe not that big...he was going to weigh them. I couldn't sleep at all kept reliving the day...just woke up ( took something to help sleep) so I will go out and cm on her....she was my goat I originally got to milk...I just didn't know if that was best for her....I will try it today and see how it goes.

The other two that are pregnant are pygmy and another pygmy/ nigi cross.....cocoa we went going to breed her at all..but the nous snuck past me....

p So another question for the experts here any thing else I should give her

Oh for who was asking. She was eating hay and then I mix up. Dumor grain rolled oatrs boss beet bulp all mixed together given a hand full or so once a day but now that I think about it she probably eats more than anyone as she is the boss and pushes everyone out of the way

Our Little Farm · #20 02/09/11, 09:19 AM

I would milk her if you can. Get her used to the milking stand and freeze the colostrum. It is best for her.

Hopefully this is the worst experience you will ever have and the rest will be fine and easy and even this doe could go on to breed well for you next year.

I think you did the best that you could have done. You sound braver than me!