help with a weird goat problem.

[Birch Hill Farm]

For about a week or so there has been something wrong with one of our goats. She is a alpine, boar cross about two years old been a very healthy goat. About a week or so ago I noticed she is walking very weird with her back legs. Its almost like she is dragging one of her back legs, and when she stands still her legs are spread out kind of funny then as she stand still her back end starts to curve around too the side, even her tail curves side ways in the same direction. I have inspected her feet and do not feel anything obviously wrong with her legs. She eats fine and does not seem to be in pain and does not seem to be getting any worse. Any thoughts on this weird problem? thanks -jon.

[Backfourty,MI.]

Could she have injured herself somehow, like the spine?

Have you read any of the links or threads on meningeal worm? Just trying to give ideas because I really don't know what to tell you to do.
Hopefully someone will have experience with this kind of problem. Lots of very knowledgable folks here.

[julieq]

Injury is the first thing that comes to mind. I'd definitely seek the advice of my vet.

[valsey]

Originally Posted by Birch Hill Farm

For about a week or so there has been something wrong with one of our goats. She is a alpine, boar cross about two years old been a very healthy goat. About a week or so ago I noticed she is walking very weird with her back legs. Its almost like she is dragging one of her back legs, and when she stands still her legs are spread out kind of funny then as she stand still her back end starts to curve around too the side, even her tail curves side ways in the same direction. I have inspected her feet and do not feel anything obviously wrong with her legs. She eats fine and does not seem to be in pain and does not seem to be getting any worse. Any thoughts on this weird problem? thanks -jon.

Do you have deer in your area? Is she eating and drinking okay? Any itching?

[Birch Hill Farm]

My original though was the deer worm, just hoping it was something else. Yes we have tons of deer here. She is still eating and drinking good and none of the itching you see with the deer worm has shown up yet. Its possible she could have been butted by another goat, that would be the only injury I could think might happen.

[valsey]

I can only comment on what I know and I am not experienced in anything neurological (polio, listerosis etc. ) So men. worm is what comes to mind. I have had a goat with meningeal worm - at least I believe that's what it was- It hit my doe at exactly this time last year and I fear I have a wether who has it now. There is no way to test for it, so you have to go by symptoms and circumstances. I have deer, the timing is the same, the itch is unbelievable (and I think comes first usually, but didn't with my doe), eating and drinking is normal...I think catching it quickly is key.

[Alice In TX/MO]

If you are going to treat for meningeal worm, start NOW!

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...ngealworm.html

[motdaugrnds]

Thanks for the link Alice.

[valsey]

Originally Posted by valsey

...the itch is unbelievable (and I think comes first usually, but didn't with my doe....

Looking back at old notes, the itching did come first. Are you sure she's not scratching at herself?

Nevertheless - all goats present differently, I would imagine. I'm going out to treat my boy right now!

[Birch Hill Farm]

Yes, thanks for the link. They give the dose for the ivomec plus, but all I have right now is ivomec drench .08 solution. Any idea how that would compare to the recomended 1cc per 25lbs of the plus? Anyone know what the solution % is with the plus so I can convert it?
thanks-jon

[Alice In TX/MO]

I can't do that kind of math. Hopefully someone else can.

It should have the percentage on the box.

[Birch Hill Farm]

I think what I have will not work, its a drench and I assume I need injectable for fast blood stream absorption.

[valsey]

It's my understanding that injectable is all that will work. I've read a lot that Ivermectin is the choice, however Ivermectin Plus is also recommended. It's my assumption that the reason for that is to take care of liver flukes if they have them. Fenbendazol is also often mentioned.

Frankly, I've never even heard of an Ivermectin drench - can you give more details?

I'll post my notes on dosage (next post), but not sure if there are understandable. Feel free to question anything in the post if I can help to clear it up.

Just went out to see my boy and he has a new sore....arghhhhhhh

[valsey]

Jon - your description of the twist she's displaying is exactly what my goat was doing. I'll see if I can find a link of the video. Can you post a video or photo?

If you are going to treat for MW, you may want to start a new topic with 'Meningeal Worm dosage' as the topic.

These are the dosages and info I've come across:
Some may be dated...

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Ivomec injectable is used 1cc per 25lbs orally normally to deworm.
For MW you do it orally AND give the same dose injected.

ONCE

I use dex 1cc per 100lbs for first 3 days, 1/2 cc per 100 lbs day 4 through 6
Banamine is 1cc per 100lbs for no more than 6 days tops.

I will warn you that it is a rough treatment, she'll be loopy while it works. If she is pregnant she will abort. You'll have to make sure she gets up regularly and pees and poops. Watch for pneumonia to set it and treat her with antibiotics if it happens.


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Buddy was treated with a 10 day serious of 3 shots and an oral med per day. They included B-complex, an anti-inflamatory that would cross the blood/brain barrier (to some degree) and a bunch of other stuff. The vet says the treatments are still evolving and she called the Ohio University samll ruminants department to get the most current recommendation. He started improving immediately, and while he came out of it quite weedy for a while is now strong, shiny, and bouncy. The vet credits the fact that he got every shot, every day. Even though one stung, he was the biggest trooper about all of this and he obviously now associates people with being able to heal things that don't feel good. He'd come up to the gate every day at 4 pm, dodge the others, come into the laundry and take all the shots while munching corn. He knew one would burn, and would flinch in advance, but he's snack on the corn and accept it.


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We used Dexamethazone for the swelling in the spinal cord, and Banamine mostly as a setative for her to stay in la la land and not self mutilate. She was down, could not support her weight on her rear legs. We profilactically gave her Sulfa's by mouth since bacterial pnemonias and cocci are soo opportunistic here in the south. B vitamins, fluids subq, so I didn't have to make sure she was drinking, although she did.

It was a long week, but by the 6th day of treatment she actually got up about 10 inches and got the heck away from me and my handful of needles! A very good sign. She went on to win at shows afterwards, and as long as I walked her slowly and deliberatly in the ring, which I do anyway, you could not see that she actually did have some lingering neurological problems with this hitch in her getalong She went on to kid, milk and live a very long life.

The problems are it's alot of Ivermectin to give subq, give it in two places, Faydra received two shots of 5cc each of Ivermectin Plus (very hard on the liver to give this much and especially if you are guessing, any vet could give your goat a neurological exam and tell you what is up) so you can see that it isn't something you could use profilactically during the fall, during deer worm season.


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The lady that came out was a vet professor, Lisa Williamson, with 4 of her graduate students. They checked for mites and found none, and put the goat through some pretty extensive gait tests. They found weakness in the rear legs. She said deer worm would be her first diagnosis. A spinal tap might be useful, but because of the one day on steroids, it might give inconclusive results, and has some risks, so she would just go ahead and treat him for deer worm. They even took pictures of the goat to show in a class.

Her treatment is 5 days of 10cc of fenbendazole orally, and continue the 7 days of steroids. Call her if I didn't see improvement. The rear leg weakness should correct itself over time.

Treat the rest of the herd with one dose of Ivermectin, and watch them. If any shows signs of impulsive scratching, put them on the regular treatment. Gait abnormalities usually show up about 2 weeks after the scratching starts.

As a preventative she said to treat the whole herd once a month with Ivermectin, because it was already almost useless for stomach worms in our area, anyway, and she didn't want to contribute to resistance to moxidectin. And that dosing with Ivermectin once a month would not cause damage to the liver.


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Here is the directionss from Onion Creek. (looks like this has changed)
Treatment involves very high dosages of injectable ivermectin. Ivermectin paste or pour-on are not effective. Injectable Ivomec should be given at a rate of 1 cc per 55 pounds bodyweight for at least three days, followed by a double-the-cattle dosage of fenbendazole (Safeguard or Panacur) for five days. If the goat is down and can't get up on its own, the chance for recovery is not good. An anti-inflammatory drug like Banamine can be useful in alleviating the inflammation of nerve tissue. Dexamethozone may also be used, but it can cause abortions in pregnant does.

This treatment, if utilized early in the disease, can stop its progression but cannot undo any nerve damage. Permanent spinal damage (including curvature), weakness in the hindquarters, and/or inability to deliver kids may be the residual effect of Meningeal Worm infection. Once the spinal cord is damaged, treatment can only do so much and the goat will never be back to full health. Producers should let at least one month pass before becoming convinced that the animal has been successfully treated.


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She told me that Meningeal worm is a real problem and she has had 3 cases and one had progressed too far and she lost her. As I was explaining my buck's symptoms, she said that she was thinking of Meningeal worm. She gave me the recommended treatment from her vet and said that it worked. It is 3x cattle dosage Ivomec injectible, every other day for 3 doses total. Then wait 10 days and do it again. Give B complex and Probiotics daily during this. She also said to purchase the Safeguard blocks to put out from about August to the first hard frost and this is supposed to keep the goats from getting the Meningeal worms. She said this is what some people do in Michigan, where deer are out of control

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Sorry, but that is exactly like how my goats were walking and laying down. They were having to think about each step so that they did not fall flat on their face. Ivomec is cheap, you have not wormed in a while, do it, IM.
Mine were in pain too from MW, the larva was eating its way through the bone marrow. Vets did not want to let me dose them with Banamine daily. That's why I put them down and did a necropsy, best $35 I ever spent. Showed 8 vets that my thoughts were correct with our rainy weather last summer. First one went slow, 6 weeks of good days and bad. MW was in her lower spine. She stood for the vets to take blood and run tests, even walked across the lab to check things out. Trust me it was a hard thing to see and do, but she was in pain and I knew I had done everything for her. The Ivomec had done its job, but I did not do it soon enough because I had her on a worming schedule (SQ) and everyone told me it couldn't be MW. The damage was done, vets let me observe and the worm had made swiss cheese of my girl. I hope to never see damage like that again. Second went quick within a week they were stumbling and unable to stand, drooling. No chance for Ivomec to work. MW was in the brain on Necropsy. Two thousand dollar animals lost to MW, now Bambi gets chased away by three dogs 24/7.

If she just had an injury, she would not lay down like that. She would be favoring the injury. You would know just by looking at her where the injury was.

#86
My neighbor has Banamine and is willing to sell me 6 ccs (2 per day for 3 days is my plan). She also has a equine chiro I can contact. I'll call the vet, but I think he only does farm trips on Thursdays.

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This is what I (really me - not found on internet) did for my (175 lb) doe last year:


Wed 1/27 – first noticed the curved spine (maybe Tuesday night, not sure)

Thur 1/28 – 2 ccs of Banamine IM (assuming it was an injury)

Fri 1/29 – 2 ccs of Banamine IM (assuming it was an injury)

Sat 1/30 – 2 ccs of Banamine IM + 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine (generic) SQ (assuming it was an injury, but now thinking MW). Also wormed the other Nubian the same.

Sun 1/31– 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine (generic) SQ. Also wormed the other Nubian the same.

Mon 2/1– vet visit - Thiamin, Dex, Banamine and 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine

Tues 2/2– Thiamin

Wed 2/3 - Thiamin, 2 ccs of Banamine IM, 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine (generic) SQ, 3 ccs Dexamethasone.

Thurs 2/4 , 2 ccs of Banamine IM, 2.5 ccs Dexamethasone IM, chlorhexidine on sores – (bleeding)

Fri 2/5 – 2 ccs Dexamethasone IM

[valsey]

Got any neighbors with cows?

[Birch Hill Farm]

Thanks for all the post, just got back from tractor supply to get the injectable ivermec. All we had at home was the ivomec sheep drench, it has worked well for us over the last year for barber pole worms, its just really diluted so it takes a lot. Thank you valsey for all the good info! Its too dark for pictures tonight will try to get some tomorrow. And yes all the neighbors have cows.

[valsey]

Originally Posted by Birch Hill Farm

And yes all the neighbors have cows.

I just asked if the the neighbors had cows as a source for the ivermectin

[valsey]

This is a video of my doe from last year. Hard to tell from this, but her spine was curved. Does your doe have difficulty sitting down like this?

YouTube

[Birch Hill Farm]

wow, that is spot on what our goat is doing. So, she had the deer worm?

[valsey]

I believe she did. I can't for the life of me remember if the itching was first or the lameness. I swear it was the lameness/curved spine, but sketchy documentation says it was the itchy sores (which my boy has now - almost going in a line straight to his spine - I'll have to post pics). With Lucy - I contemplated too long and treated for lice/mites - didn't know about MW...>curved spine. Thought of injury at first too - so I hesitated.

Previous poster - when viewing this video a year ago was the one who said "Sorry, but that is exactly like how my goats were walking and laying down. They were having to think about each step so that they did not fall flat on their face. Ivomec is cheap, you have not wormed in a while, do it

I cannot say that's what happening with your goat - she doesn't have itching or the sores, so maybe not (you've looked/watched closely, yes? )