Questions about Listeriosis/goat polio

[mpete]

Here is the whole story from a month ago to now:
My goats were being browsed everyday, plus a daily mixture of alf. pellets, calf mana, BOSS, beet pulp pellets and loose minerals. With my new foster kids I didn't have time to browse them so I bought a ton of grass hay. I don't really have a hay storage so I went to using alf. cubes so they can get their long fiber. My doe had been pasture bred, so due date was totally a guess, but I put her in a pen with a buddy expecting her to kid any time...( no real labor symptoms but just stretching), at this point I added all in one (alf and wheat hay chopped up with molasses, not moldy in appearance). A week later is when she began to look depressed, decreased appetite. The next day she was getting her feet up under her, that evening she began to have seizures and throwing herself around. I gave her 80 cc vit. b sq and 20 cc orally. She began to lay sternally within 10 min, and was up walking and eating 25 minutes after that. I took her temp, 103.8, I know that is not necessarily high, but her roomate was 101.5 and it was 40 degrees outside. I gave her 11 cc penecillian (180 lb doe). I got Thiamine (500 mg/ml) and began 2cc sq injections every 6 hours. Approx 16 hours later she was showing outward symptoms of labor (icky tail, stretching). about 12 hours after that she aborted 2 kids... both alive at birth, but premature. They were hairless, eyes shut. One tried to breath but .....
So now you have a history... my questions... What is this? Does Listeriosis symptoms ease up with Vit b/ Thiamine injections? Is this contagious? I know I probably set the whole series in motion with the change in feed, but could I have stopped this? Was it polio and the kids were just a victim of circumstance from the seizures?

[crazygoatgal]

I am very limited in my listeriosis experience. I may have had it once but didn't have a competent vet to do a necropsy after and no help before. But with this doeling(9mon.old) she actually did seem to be getting better after injections of Vit. B and Dex(I believe). It was a while ago. I also remember trying Pen.Procaine. She eventually died and all I was told was that it was probably listeriosis and I didn't intervene quickly enough and not aggressive enough. Poor little thing. She lived in my bathroom the entire time she was ill so I could watch her and be with her. She got to the point where she couldn't walk anymore. I hope you do better and your girl makes a full recovery.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Alfalfa cubes? They are very difficult for a goat to eat. Most feed alfalfa pellets.

Alfalfa is fed to help keep the calcium/phosphorous in balance.

If they have grass hay, they have fiber.

Sounds like she *may* have gone into acidosis due to the repeated radical changes in diet. When their digestions get messed up, they can't make their own B vitamins, and goat polio can resut.

Also, sudden changes and too much molasses and moldy feed (whether you can see it or not) can lead to Listeriosis.

Goat food changes must be gradual for their digestions to adjust.

Goat polio is not contagious. (That's what responds to the B injections.)

http://goat-link.com/content/view/172/168/

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/li...sis_gwmf.shtml

[motdaugrnds]

When I first start raising goats (1996), I lost a couple of does to what the vets called Listeriosis. I discovered (read it somewhere) that Listeriosis was caused from "overfeeding". (I had ignorantly been feeding them 6-8 cups of grain daily...duh!) Over the last 10 yrs, I have cut back to feeding only what I am now (8 oz of each: cracked corn, sweet feed, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp .. with a handful of BOSS) and have not lost even one goat since.

[Alice In TX/MO]

And hay?

[coso]

Listeriosis is a bacteria and usually hay(or silage) with mold that harbors the bacteria is the culprit when it comes to goats . Oxytet (Biomycin,LA200) can be used. If you are having a herd wide outbreak tetracycline crumbles.

[mpete]

I thought my introducing new feed was slow, I started with a handful of the all in one and went up to 2 within the week. Is there any recommendations? I feel bad because I am responsible to feed her but something went wrong... all the others seem to be ok... should I be worried about any future things with them?

[natty threads]

It sounds like it was goat polio, not listeriosis.
They almost never recover from listeriosis is my understanding, and it requires radical antibiotic intervention.

They can get goat polio from their rumens shutting down, and seems just about anything can send a rumen into revolt.

Goat polio is caused by a B vitamin deficiency, and their rumens make their B vitamins.

We had a visitor doe here die of listeriosis- actually we put her down- she was screaming and running with her head cramped to the side crashing into the house, through the fence, running with her bent head smooshed into the ground screaming the whole time.

Couldn't get the vet of course.

He wouldn't have been able to help anyway.

I am a LONG LONG LONG way from being a goat expert, but that is what I have learned about listeriosis and goat polio through the sad sad lens of experience.

Listeriosis is carried by wild animals including birds, so it is possible it will hit a flock member no matter how careful you are.

Also, they can carry it and it may take weeks from first infection until signs of the disease actually show. It is precipitated by COLD.

I am glad you didn't lose your doe.

That is always a blessing.

Some years that's all we get.

Bless up!

[Alice In TX/MO]

*Really* good info about Listeriosis...

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/51400.htm

[natty threads]

Thank-you Alice.

I am wondering if there is a test for this to see if goats are carrying it.

Not sure what I read, but one article had said the incubation can be as long as five weeks before the animal shows signs.

I think the OP's goat had goat polio.

My understanding is that listeriosis requires aggressive antibiotic therapy.

Bless up.

[natty threads]

Originally Posted by mpete

I thought my introducing new feed was slow, I started with a handful of the all in one and went up to 2 within the week. Is there any recommendations? I feel bad because I am responsible to feed her but something went wrong... all the others seem to be ok... should I be worried about any future things with them?

Again, I am no goat expert, but I would start with B vitamins as soon as I noticed a goat not eating.

They make their own B's in their rumens.
If the rumen shuts down, which is what is going on with the goat not eating, then the goat is not making her B vitamins and will need to be supplemented.

It is always sad to lose kids.
My Sammy just lost THREE doelings because I was irresponsible and left my goats out and a windstorm came and she and her daughter got chilled and I almost lost them both.

Stupid goats STILL try to break out when I bring them in "early" and STILL try to stay out all night sometimes.

I don't really mean they are stupid, of course.

They just aren't thinking ahead.
They are goats.
We have to think ahead for them.

*** *** *** *** ***

I don't really know about chop.
I don't really know about wheat hay.

It seems that they use the more questionable hays for anything that gets mixed with molasses and/or processed.

I haven't even heard of wheat being used for hay.

It isn't something that should be fed in quantity to goats is it?
Wheat I mean.

I have also been learning that feeding molasses as part of the regular ration can lead to acidosis.
???

Again, I am no expert.

They sure don't eat tin cans!


Bless up.