Dehorn or not?

andiplus8 · #1 12/07/10, 11:11 AM

I have a two yr old nubian doe and a two yr old boer/alpine doe. Both of them are smaller than the rest of my goats so I put them in with my new herd of ND's. Turns out they are the same size as my mini nubian and my boer/ND cross. They fit in great and the buck is loving them! lol
BUT both these girls have horns. All of our goats have horns except the new ones. Should I have these girls dehorned at this age or just leave them the way they are? They are not having any problems intergrating and they aren't hurting the new goats. So I'm not sure if I should just leave their horns or not.
Opinions?

secretcreek · #2 12/07/10, 11:25 AM

Disbudding a kid is one thing. Dehorning an older animal is a (((whole))) nother story. It is a very invasive surgery- you can not just lob off the horn, the horn growth tissue has to be scooped out and leaves a huge hole in the goat' now open skull and a hole down thru the head as this sx opens up the sinus cavity. I'm not being a "bunny-hugger" PETA type person here... It's very painful and stressful to an animal. A goat's horn has a blood supply and a nerve that runs up thru the horn. I saw a neighbors goat after this sx and vowwed I'd never put one of my goats thru that- unless it was a matter of an emergency such as a broken horn.

Obviously I vote NO ...if the goats are not using their horns to bully- because they will know they have them and others don't. Just watch your eyes as you bend over the girls. You can nub off a sharp tip- just the end of a horn to blunt it, or use buy horn guards or make your own if need be. There's my opinion.
-scrt crk

andiplus8 · #3 12/07/10, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretcreek

Disbudding a kid is one thing. Dehorning an older animal is a (((whole))) nother story. It is a very invasive surgery- you can not just lob off the horn, the horn growth tissue has to be scooped out and leaves a huge hole in the goat' now open skull and a hole down thru the head as this sx opens up the sinus cavity. I'm not being a "bunny-hugger" PETA type person here... It's very painful and stressful to an animal. A goat's horn has a blood supply and a nerve that runs up thru the horn. I saw a neighbors goat after this sx and vowwed I'd never put one of my goats thru that- unless it was a matter of an emergency such as a broken horn.
-scrt crk

I know you're not being a bunny hugger. lol I've had goats for a long time and waaaay back when we first started we disbudded. But we have coyotes and felt the goats were better able to defend themselves with horns. I think they have horns for a reason. Besides we weren't breeding them for show goats.
I have seen what happens when they knock off a horn too. Very nasty. I would never attempt to dehorn a goat on my own. But I have a very knowledgeable (and not too expensive) semi retired vet that would do it without costing me my first born child. lol
No they aren't using their horns against the others. But they do know they have them, that's for sure!

TroutRiver · #4 12/07/10, 11:48 AM

I have 2 horned goats right now and 4 that were disbudded as kids. They all live in the same pen and share the same shelter. They get along fine, they don't hurt each other and the horned goats are not dominant over the ones without horns. I am not planning on dehorning any of the kids next Spring. I personally prefer goats with horns, so if I had to make the choice, I would sell my hornless goats. But as of right now, it hasn't been an issue and all the goats coexist and get along just fine

andiplus8 · #5 12/07/10, 11:50 AM

These are the answers I was looking for! I am of the opinion that goats should be as they were made...i.e. the horns.
I really didn't want to dehorn these girls but wasn't sure if I should or not. I just needed to hear from someone who has mixed (horned/not horned) herds too. Thanks!

secretcreek · #6 12/07/10, 01:04 PM

We got into goats as 4H projects... does... so they were disbudded per safety of my then little kids, and for 4H rules. That was over 10 yrs ago and I'm on my last two goats from that "project".

I pack with my wethers and ABSOLUTELY love the look of horned goats...especially the scimitar style huge horns some breeds can grow. I'll go horned next go'round...but really...getting pronged does hurt even so!

Glad I didn't upset you- later I thought I might have come off too strong.

/ I guess it still hurts remembering the neighbor's darling saanen who died slowely, after a terrible dehorning... They were new to goats and had no idea the surgery would be that involved...just thought they had to have it done as a "check off the list for 4H fair" time.

Check out the gorgeous horns on these packgoat wethers! http://www.highuintapackgoats.com/
-scrt crk

Dehorn or not? - Goats

andiplus8 · #7 12/07/10, 01:21 PM

No, you didn't offend me.

I know the consequences of dehorning and it's ugly! I love the horned look too. I think they are beautiful in their natural form. I'm with you though, getting horned HURTS! LOL I have had horrible bruieses from getting horned while trimming hooves, worming, giving shots, etc...lol Goats can be brutal sometimes. ugh...
I love, love, love the pack goats!! We had one once, but when my dh got laid off in 09 we had to sell off all our animals and he went with the rest of them.

He was big and beautiful. He was a product of my Toggenburg doe and our big boer buck. He was lovely and strong!
Do you have pics of your own pack goats?
I'm getting totally off topic but since it's my thread I guess that's ok! lol

KnowOneSpecial · #8 12/07/10, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretcreek

Disbudding a kid is one thing. Dehorning an older animal is a (((whole))) nother story. It is a very invasive surgery- you can not just lob off the horn, the horn growth tissue has to be scooped out and leaves a huge hole in the goat' now open skull and a hole down thru the head as this sx opens up the sinus cavity. I'm not being a "bunny-hugger" PETA type person here... It's very painful and stressful to an animal. A goat's horn has a blood supply and a nerve that runs up thru the horn. I saw a neighbors goat after this sx and vowwed I'd never put one of my goats thru that- unless it was a matter of an emergency such as a broken horn.

Obviously I vote NO ...if the goats are not using their horns to bully- because they will know they have them and others don't. Just watch your eyes as you bend over the girls. You can nub off a sharp tip- just the end of a horn to blunt it, or use buy horn guards or make your own if need be. There's my opinion.
-scrt crk

I TOTALLY agree.

I have a buck who was supposedly dehorned TWICE before I got him as a 6 week old. He had some pretty large horns growing in-not as big as they should have been, but still growing. Unfortunately one of them curved and was trying to grow back into his head-right under his eye. I had the vet out to trim them down and he talked me into the full surgery.

They have to totally knock the goat out and then they used wire to saw the horn off. It left two huge holes on the top of his head that went down into his sinus cavity. My goat was out for about an hour. When he came to he needed to be watched for 2 more hours before he was able to get up and fully walk.

The vet wrapped his head in a way that the buck looked like he was wearing an old fashioned football helmet. It was to be on for a week. The night before I was going to take it off I noticed that the buck had moved the helmet back an inch. It looked nasty, but I wasn't going to mess with it since I was going to take the whole thing off the next day. I went out the next morning to see that it had moved back 2 more inches and was literally crawling with maggots.

Called the vet back out and he had to use the hose to blast off of thebuggers off. DH and I had to go out every morning and night, blast his head with water, soap it up with antibacterial soap, blast that off, put on some Quartermaster stuff, and spray some anti-fly spray. AND I had to give him a huge shot of Pen-G every night.

Needless to say, my once loving bottle fed goat hated me. He moaned and walked away from me for about a month after this happened. I know it was very painful to him. He lost a great amount of weight. It was one of the most tramatic things I've ever seen on a farm.

That being said, the )(*%$$ing horns are now growing back.

The vet and I have decided that we can cut the goats head off and he'd have horns growing out of his neck! Oh, and I got to pay around $300 for all of the vet visits, meds and shots.

I will NEVER EVER do this to another animal again. If they have horns please let them be. Put tennis balls on the ends-do whatever you need to do, but do not cut the horns off surgically.

sammyd · #9 12/07/10, 02:12 PM

We have had 3 horned goats in our herd that we bought in because they looked like good milkers, fine type, etc....
All were complete bullies to the other non horned goats.
We cut the horns on a younger one. Sold one and will be getting rid of the last one after her next lactation.
Do not want any horns around here.

andiplus8 · #10 12/07/10, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnowOneSpecial

If they have horns please let them be. Put tennis balls on the ends-do whatever you need to do, but do not cut the horns off surgically.

Oh my word!! What a gruesome experience for the poor goat and y'all too. eeewwwww!
I have heard horror stories like that and then I have ppl on the other side of the coin that absolutely SWEAR you HAVE to dehorn them if you put them in a hornless herd. Which is why I only keep horned goats and I only buy horned goats.
I made an exception with this little crew. I'm glad I did though because I love these goats!!
I just checked on all of them again and they are doing fine in mixed company. It helps that the horned goats are not any bigger than the unhorned ones. They are all small.
The buck keeps chasing the girls but they are more interested in the wether! LOL Apparently he is better looking to them. uhoh!

Goat Servant · #11 12/07/10, 03:32 PM

Everybody has horns around here except the one Nubian who was disbudded the frst week before we got her.
Up until last year she was Herd Queen. Her head is just as hard as horns minus the tips that you get inadvertantly scraped with.
She would spar with the others at times.
Good golly hornless Boers,to me they look incomplete.

andiplus8 · #12 12/07/10, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goat Servant

Good golly hornless Boers,to me they look incomplete.

ROFL I know!! They look so weird to me. Poor goats.

HappyFarmer · #13 12/07/10, 05:21 PM

We have a mixed buck herd of horns/no horns/polled. For the most part they get along well, then other times I get one or two horned bullys throwing the others around by the belly. I watched in horror one day as a little 100# s**t throw my 153# buck about 3 feet onto a wooden feeder that is 6" high. These boys are 3 through 6 years old. Landed right on his back. Thought for sure his back was broken, but thank god he was okay.

That same boy just LOVES to hook the other bucks legs, just above the hoof. One of these days he's going to break a leg. He still has his horns, but if he keeps that crap up he's going to either lose his horns or his life.

My does are all either disbudded/dehorned or polled. I'll have none of that nonsense on my does that cost me over 500 (most closer to 700) each to acquire (cost & transportation). I made that decision when a horned doeling just 2 weeks off the plane was found on a hot summer day in the fence, panting & stressed. If I received them with horns they were either dehorned or disbudded at a late date. Thankfully my vet knows how to do these procedures in a manner that is humane, with pain meds as a follow up if needed. Honestly, the 4 I had dehorned never needed the pain meds.

And, my vet would never, ever, voluntarily dehorn a goat during fly season. If your vet did this, in a non-emergency situation, I would be finding a new vet. That fiasco is one that was completely avoidable & should have no bearing on the decision to dehorn/disbud. He should have known better.

HF

KnowOneSpecial · #14 12/07/10, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

And, my vet would never, ever, voluntarily dehorn a goat during fly season. If your vet did this, in a non-emergency situation, I would be finding a new vet. That fiasco is one that was completely avoidable & should have no bearing on the decision to dehorn/disbud. He should have known better.

HF

"find a new vet" That's easy to say when you have more than one large animal vet within 30 miles and who makes farm calls. It's pretty slim pickin's around here. He felt that since the horn was growing near the goats head and that we'd have to sedate him some to get the horn cut down that we should just go ahead and do it. He didn't want to have a goat with a rough edged horn near other animals.

As for "fly season"....We still have a few of them in the house still today. Up until 2 weeks ago I saw the occasional fly in the barn.

Pony · #15 12/07/10, 10:40 PM

Oh, my.

I have disbudded goats, oh, and one polled doe.

In a moment of frugality, I chose to leave the buckling from the latest kidding at home when I took the doelings in to be disbudded.

He's now a couple of months old, and has these cute little horns.

I went out to talk to the goats today, and oh, dear Lord! What's happening to the buckling?? He's stretching his head WAAAAAAAAAAY back over his spine, and moving it from side to side.

Oh... oh... Is it a neurological problem I've never read about? Some strange form of an odd virus?

No.

It's a buckling enjoying a good scratch of his back.

Sheesh!

Never had a goat with horns, didn't realize they use them for purposes other than protection.

andiplus8 · #16 12/07/10, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

No.

It's a buckling enjoying a good scratch of his back.

Sheesh!

Never had a goat with horns, didn't realize they use them for purposes other than protection.

ROFL!! I had a doe that would even scratch her sister.

They were very close and always slept beside each other, ate together, and kidded together. One would scratch the other if they couldn't reach. They really are amazing animals!

Astrid · #17 12/07/10, 11:51 PM

I have had horned goats and disbudded goats together but I found that the horned goats would get their horns stuck in the fence all the time and I would have to go and pull them out almost on a daily basis.

Sonshine · #18 12/07/10, 11:54 PM

Not to highjack the thread, but what is polling? The goats I have don't have horns, so I guess they were all removed before I got them. However, I like horns on goats. I think it's a more natural look. Would there be a problem with kids from the ones I have now if I didn't have their horns removed? Or should they be ok with my small herd of 4 goats?

secretcreek · #19 12/08/10, 12:03 AM

It's goofy looking, but I've seen people tape ( and I mean "industrial strength taping) a stick /plstic pipe or like object across the top of goat horns to prevent the goat from getting stuck in a fence. Every single saanen I ever owned went thru a period where they'd stick their head thru cattle panel and get very stuck... UGH....only the saanens did this over and over. My laMancha did it once and learned.

Love goat.
-scrt crk

Backfourty,MI. · #20 12/08/10, 07:24 AM

I would never dehorn a 2 year old goat. If they are all getting along then just let them be. I have horned & disbudded goats together & everyone gets along fine & never any injuries to another goat, etc.