tri-purpose mixed breeds?

[TroutRiver]

Hey everyone,

I am new to the world of dairy goats, but I had angora goats when I was growing up. I also had 2 angora/saanen cross does and I remember that they had a very interesting fleece (closer to cashmere than angora fleece). I didn't milk them at all, they were just pets.

Now I am wondering if I can "create" a tri purpose milk/fleece/meat breed. I have 3 does that I'm looking to breed this year (a nubian, a nubian/alpine and a nubian/boer) and I am thinking about breeding the purebred nubian to an angora buck. Have any of you experimented with fleece/dairy hybrids? I am interested in learning more about it before I jump in with both feet, but I have not been able to find any information anywhere, or any people who have done this...?

[CaliannG]

People have TRIED....there was one farm that bred "Cashmilks", another that did Nugoras....

I am VERY interested in a fleece/milk goat, but it is difficult to get. You CAN try and breed them for yourself, but unless you have other people interested also, or unless you are rich enough to afford a spread to support thousands of animals, you end up with a depleted gene pool and all the problems inherent in that.

As soon as I win the lottery, I will be developing that all purpose breed. I plan to use Saanans as my dairy line, then add in two lines, one cashmere, one angora. If I can, I will attempt to throw in some Boer, and them do intense breeding for the purpose of sex-linking meat production. Once I get that stabilized, I will miniaturize it for backyard homesteaders.... creating standard size and mini size fleece/milk/meat goats.

After 20 years, and thousands and thousands of goats, I should have herds of white, darling, FLUFFY milking goats in which the males (and males only) tend to a dense meat production.

See why I need to win the lottery?

E.T.A. And before I sell a single goat or breeding herd, I will write an entire book on them and write the breed standard. One of the things that will be part of that standard will be horn characteristics.....and de-horned or disbudded goats will be disqualified from showing. ~nodsnodsnodsnodsnodsnods~ I will call them "Taameres" [TAY- meyrz] and "Taagoras" [TAY-gor-ahz]. They will be white to cream colored, with blue eyes. (Double recessive blue eyes, so that it will be difficult to out-cross without the resulting offspring showing up as a cross, rather than a pure-bred.) Does will be conformation judged for dairy characteristics, but bucks will be conformation judged for meat characteristics. (I will be aiming for meat-looking bucks and dairy character does.)

Yep, yep, yep, yep....come ON lottery!

[mygoat]

I have several issues with the idea of dual purpose - not to mention TRI purpose goats.

First, dairy character and production drops when you add in meat breed qualities. Even if you can get the extended lactations for a long time, they won't produce a lot. Boer blood will also add extra teats and generally poor udder attachments, too.

Secondly, I don't think you can get chunky bucklings with lots of meat characteristics, but still get dairy type doelings (and by that I mean dairy character). You'd either get chunky kids or dairy type kids, or maybe a mix or middleground - but not specifically dairy character does and meat type bucklings. Either way you'd be able to eat the culls, though.

Thirdly, the demands on the dairy/fiber does would be pretty extreme. They'd need abundant, high quality feed to produce fiber AND milk at the same time. I imagine the growth time for their fiber would be longer and lower quality, because they'd be milking and therefore not able to put as much protein towards growing hair while they are trying to keep up with the milk demand.

So, you COULD possibly produce a breed that may do OK as all three. Likely, they'd be only marginal at best at all three, and it would likely be best to just have all three breeds separately.

[CaliannG]

Tsk, tsk, tsk! mygoats, you are acting like there are not ALREADY fiber/dairy breeds that produce a good fiber as well as good milk characteristics. How American of you! (I am teasing you, but what I am saying is true, none-the-less.)

Might I introduce you to the most common breed of goat in Tibet? Herd of fiber/dairy goats.

These goats are purported to be easy, docile milkers, produce a fine fiber that used to be used for robes and felts in the temples, and also have a decent carcass.

Nepal also has tri-purpose goats. Actually, look at the native species of nearly any Old World Country that experiences a rough cold seasons (northern latitudes, high altitudes, etc.) and you will find tri-purpose goats.

Of course, you can't bring any of them HERE unless you *smuggle* them in. We have very strict laws when it comes to that. Look at what a pain it was to get Boer goats here!

Fiber production does not effect milk production very much. That's like telling a woman with a thick, heavy mane of hair that she is going to have difficulty breast-feeding twins because too much of her resources are going into her HAIR! Both Cashmere and Mohair breeds are simply the results of a long time of selecting for thick, fine coats. It does NOT mean that they require a huge amount of feed to grow out their normal winter coats! (How much feed does the average LGD need to grow out a winter coat? I know my LGD is producing FAR more fiber than even the BEST Cashmere Goat! He has to be, I keep having to sweep it up in mounds!)

Sex linking meat production is NOT difficult. We have done it with many other animals for centuries...and in some areas, it has become a problem. One area I am thinking of is dogs...particularly the mastiff breeds.

For the longest time, mastiff breeds were judged differently based on sex. Dog were supposed to have a heavy, meaty, buff form, whereas bi--- eer, females were supposed to have a more refined and feminine appearance.

Then some bright person came along and said that ALL of them should be heavy, meaty and buff...and there the problems started. When breeders started going for a more doggy look in their females, there started to be whelping problems, fertility problems, etc., etc.

Enter a bunch of reproductive scientists who said, "Duh! In all mammals, from dogs to humans to horses to cows to sheep to goats, masculine traits such as heavy musculature, thick skeletal systems to hold up that extra musculature, etc., etc., are sex linked traits. When you start breeding for such things in your females, you are adding male characteristics to them and increasing male attributes, including hormones...which decreases reproductive productivity."

You can look up the numbers yourself, but meat goats, overall, have lower percentages of reproduction than dairy goats. It is believed that this is because meat goats are bred to have both bucks and does dress out hearty carcasses.

Now, it WOULD be tricky to breed both weight gain AND milking ability into a single doe....which is why I think that taking advantage of the natural tendency to sex-link would be the way to go. Not to mention infinitely easier.

It can be done. It would not even be all that difficult to do, IF one had the money. Lessee, this is how I would go about it.

I would start off with 2000 Saanan does, good producers. I'd likely lease them. Breed those does to 2000 Alashanzuoqi Cashmere bucks. (Breed the best producing to the best producing, right?) Figuring a low, 150% herd increase, I'll end up with 3000 kids. Half of those will be male. So, 1500 does.

Cross back to 1500 unrelated Saanan bucks. Same expectations. 1125 does. Cross them BACK to unrelated Alashanzuoqi bucks again...

I end up with approximately 1600 F3 Saanan/Alashanzuoqi crosses. Half male and half female....that I breed to EACH OTHER.

I do this for 2 years...this means at the end of year five, I have 4900 goats. 2450 males and 2450 females.

I cull that down to my BEST 1000 goats, 500 males and 500 females. The ones that are exhibiting the BEST traits I am looking for. In this case, I am looking for the meatiest and best fiber producing males, and the best milk and fiber producing females of the bunch.

Breed for 5 more years. Except now, I am culling half of my stock after every season. Realize that this will take a LOT of record keeping.

At the end of that first 10 years, I should have what I am looking for, and the next 10 years of breeding is simply to stabilize the standards.

Now, all I need is the money for those first few years of buying, leasing and breeding thousands of goats.

[TroutRiver]

thanks for the input. I am definitely not running off to experiment with this right away, like I said I would like to learn more about it. Right now I have a nubian buck with a good dairy background who I was originally planning to use for all 3 does, and that may very well be how it ends up playing out for this year (we are breeding late to plan for kids in late May). I have heard that fleece/dairy crosses would not produce as high quality or quantity milk or fiber as a pure dairy breed or pure angora. This alone isn't a huge concern for me, since I'm working on a very small scale and having a doe that produces 2-3 gallons per day isn't really important, but I am interested in health concerns and other issues that might arise.

On a slightly different note, I have heard that mixing meat and dairy breeds will lead to less quantity of milk but higher butterfat. Not sure if that's just an old wisetale or if it's true. The nubian/boer that I have was given to me for free by a friend. Her dam (nubian) has very good dairy lines and a great udder and her sire (boer) was from a commercial meat goat farm.

EDIT: I hadn't seen the last post when I wrote this...thanks!

anyone else with more input or experiences to share, feel free. I'm all ears

[CaliannG]

Out-crossing dairy with meat or fiber breeds, your first F1 cross should give you a goat that MIGHT produce some decent meat or fiber, likely WILL produce milk, the milk will be about half of what the nearest dairy dame produces, and yes, WILL BE higher in butterfat and milk solids....but you will also have a shorter lactation cycle...of about 6-8 months instead of the 10+ months that full dairy breeds will give you.

Now, your Nubians are *already* a dual purpose breed. They were bred to be meat and milk producers. They also USED TO BE sex linked, and those in Europe still are, with buff, meaty bucks and wethers, and does with more refined dairy features. (Want to really screw up a breed of something? Give that breed to the U.S. show circuit for a couple of decades and you won't be able to recognize it! Look what U.S. breeders did to German Shepherds, Persian kitties, and Thoroughbred horses!)

I don't know of a breed of fiber goat that isn't also dual purpose, either meat and fiber (like cashmeres and angoras) or mainly milk and fiber (like the Tibetans and Nepals).

Now, with your Nubians, you don't really need to out-cross unless you want REALLY meaty kids and plan on eating them all, be they male, female or hermie. If you just plan on eating excess bucklings, keep breeding to Nubian bucks. The bucklings will certainly be meaty enough.

Because Nubians ARE a dual purpose breed, they are the lowest milk producing breed common in the U.S. That might be problematical if you are a 500+ goat dairy and need super high production....but the Nubian is also the most popular breed of dairy goat in the U.S., despite their low production.

Seems small herd owners, which are the main people who get goats, don't NEED 2 gallons per day per goats, and are happier with lower production, higher milk quality and the dual purpose of the breed.

[TroutRiver]

I have been told that angoras are dual purpose meat/fleece breed and I do recall hearing that about nubians too. My nubian buck is BIG and meaty for being only in his first year, he is almost as tall as my 5 year old nubian doe and has a lot more body mass (and a beautiful THICK winter coat). I am planning on using the bucklings for meat, so hopefully that is a trait that will be passed on.

Like I said in my first post, I am very new to goats (I had them when I was younger, but they were only backyard pets. I am new to the production side of it, and to the responsible breeding side) I obviously want to be bettering my animals as I breed them, and I would like to breed hardy animals that will be good for my setup/climate in Vermont. That is more important to me than having purebreds or breeding for maximum production. However, if I'm going to be making hybrids I want it to be to better the herd. Hence, I'm here to learn from you folks. Thanks

[mygoat]

There may be tri-purpose breeds, but are they super efficient at production at all three goat products? Probably not. As I said, most likely the most efficient way to produce the products would be to have a herd with all three purebred breeds. You'd also gain more money because GENERALLY, purebreds are more consistant and are therefore worth more at sale time. Culls can always be butchered but some are at least breeding/sale quality, and purebreds will sell for more than crosses, generally.

[HappyFarmer]

CalianneG looks like you got it all worked out! lol

I have a hard time imagining any one goat offering all 3 traits at a level that would be beneficial also. I have a few meat goats that have a cashmere type coat in winter, never micron ed it but it sure is nice in winter, I consider it an extra. Can't imagine those goats keeping the meat, fiber if I added milk qualities though. Seems like 1 or 2 would traits would dominate.

I hope you win the lottery!

HF

[CaliannG]

How many SPECIALIZED breeds can you name that are super-efficient at what they do? Seriously?

Saanans are super efficient milkers...on average producing over 2000 lbs of milk per year. Do I think a tri-purpose goat is going to do that? No, I don't. However, Nubians produce the LEAST of the recognized dairy goat breeds in this country, and they are 500lbs behind the Saanans. They are also well known for the QUALITY of their milk and the high milk solids content. Crossing with meat and fiber breeds increases milk quality for certain. That's documented.

Do I expect the highest producing fiber goat? No. The highest AVERAGE Cashmere is the Alashanzuoqi from China, at 261 grams per year. Do I think my prospective tri-purpose is going to average that? No.

However, a goat that produces a good 5 ounces is not going to be culled from a U.S. cashmere herd. It won't be the top of the list, but it won't be BBQ either.

The same goes for meat production. Boers aren't the ONLY meat breed in the world. But I am not expecting top-of-the-line commercial Boer production from my tri-purpose. Yanno, many parts of the world don't even HAVE Boers. They must get by on the equivalent of Spanish goats, and Kikos, and sometimes just "goats". As a woman of my acquaintance who was born and brought up in the Philippines once told me:

"We don't have goats for milking where I grew up. We only drink cows milk. We eat the goats."
"What kind of goats are they?"
"Goat goats...they have been the same kind for as long as my grandmother can remember. They are just goats."

I'd like my tri-purpose goats to be better meat producers than goat goats...whatever kind of goat goats they are. Possibly on par with, say, Spanish goats?

What I want is average milkers, average fiber producers and average meat producers. I leave top-of-the-line, HUGE producers to commercial industry. Why are Nubians the preferred breed among homesteaders? They are the LOWEST producing of the recognized standard sized breeds. (Lamanchas are the second-lowest producers, but they are catching up in popularity.) Nigerians and Minis are becoming increasingly more popular, and you can't tell me that they are hitting that 1900-2000 lb per year mark of the highest producing breeds!

I don't need to breed that into my tri-purpose. What I need is a goat that will produce between a quart and a 1/2 gallon per day for a 10 month lactation cycle. I need it to breed true for cashmere production, preferably producing 7+ ounces per year. I need it to produce a carcass weight and bone-to-meat ratio for males that is comparable to that of Spanish goats.

And I need two goats to do the work of three goats. That is what it is about.

If I had three top-producing breeds:

1 Saanan would give me app. 2000 lbs milk a year.
1 Boer would give me app. 100lbs dressed and packaged weight meat per year.
1 Cashmere would give me approx. 9.3 ounces of cashmere per year.

So, total, I would have 2000lbs of milk, 100lbs of meat, and 9.3 ounces of cashmere from feeding 3 goats.

Now, if my tri-purpose are the LOWEST average producers in each of their areas compared to the other breeds of that type:

1500 lbs of milk per goat, is 3000lbs of milk each year.
75lbs of meat per goat, making 150lbs of meat per year.
5-7 ounces of cashmere...let's say 5, making 10 ounces of cashmere per year.

I have 3000lbs of milk, 150 lbs of meat and 10 ounces of fiber at the end of the year, but I only had to feed TWO goats, rather than three.

Ummm, who has saved some money here?
Oh, and mygoat, you showed a bit of your ignorance about cashmere goats in there. One of the reasons that the U.S. is not a top producer of cashmere down is because we refuse to starve our goats. Yes, that is right. Top production of cashmere, at least, of the fineness required, means goats go hungry. That is the opposite of putting mass amounts of body resources into the fiber.

What we produce in the U.S. is mainly a fiber named cashgora. It's not REALLY a cross between cashmere and mohair, but it kinda has properties of both. When cashmere producing, single purpose, goats are well fed and well cared for, their undercoats tend to grow thicker and coarser. To be considered "cashmere", it cannot be any larger than 19 microns...and GOOD cashmere is 15-16 microns.

Cashmere goats on good diets produce fiber in the 22-28 micron range. Certainly as good as, say, a nice merino...but NOT fine cashmere.

Which is one of the reasons that I think a milk/fiber breed, sex linked to cause meaty bucks, would do WONDERFULLY. Tibet produces wonderful cashmere, AND they feed their goats....but a lot of the goats' resources goes into milk production, meaning they also produce the quality cashmere.

:shrugs: The odd things that makes animals produce!

HF, if YOU win the lottery, will you promise to fund my breeding program? I can promise you ALL of the goats you can possibly want for your very own out of the deal.

[mygoat]

You'd still have to develop your fancy tri purpose breed, or import them. So technically, you'd be much, much further in the money pit if you got the tri purpose breeds. And, I bet there would be drastically reduce demand for the tri purpose breeds - so you'd likely have trouble selling, and likely for low prices if you can find a place for them to go. So where purebred boers/dairies/cashmere goats can sell for hundreds of dollars apeice as breeding stock, you might make a hundred dollars, if you're lucky. I know I don't want fiber goats - too much work and not enough demand for the product, IMO.

And of course, this is all based on theory. I still don't think that a 'sex linked' meatiness/dairyness is possible in goats. At least not to any distinguishable degree. You might be able to get to a mid-weight goat with decent dairy qualities but heftier than swiss breeds, but not a breed that consistantly throws chunky, meat type bucklings and dairy type doelings.

And you're right, I had no idea about quality cashmere being from poorly fed goats. Just one more reason I have little interest in cashmere.

[HappyFarmer]

CalianneG won't have to worry about money when I win the lottery.
A non issue.

I'll buy a ranch, and while I'm playing with all the cute baby goats, she can manage it, lol.

Seriously someone somewhere has to have some actual data on how these crosses actually fared, and if so why havn't we heard more on it? Looks great on paper anyways.

Now I'm gonna have to go look up cashmere goats, and microns too.

HF

[CaliannG]

Oh, I'd certainly be in the hole *developing* the breed. NO ONE has EVER, in the entire history of mankind, even broke even by DEVELOPING a new breed of *anything*. In fact, most people who have developed new breeds have gone broke doing so.

No, if I were to win the lottery and go on to pour money into a new, tri-purpose breed of goat (all speculation, of course) then it would be a labor of love, not of profit. In fact, once I got the breed fully developed, I'd likely suffer a horrific LOSS due to the fact that I would want the outcome of my years of hard work (meaning thousands of goats) well distributed with people who share the same passions.

People with passion seldom tend to have it accompanied by money....and, in the end, I would likely be more careful to insure that the result of my years of effort went to people willing to devote time and love to the newly established breed.

And THEY would be the ones to profit from my work. ~chuckles~ Also, considering they would be a limited breed, able to do so much, they might surprise me and do the Boer thing when they first started out. When I FIRST saw Boers advertised, at $25,000 a pop, I was shocked and called up the breeder:

"What makes these goats worth so much? Do they milk molten gold? Have fleece made of silver wire? What? Do they poop gemstones?"
Man laughs and says, "No. What they have is an exceptionally dense muscular system and they gain weight fast. They are meat goats."
I ask, "Well, okay. How do they taste?"
More laughter, "At $25,000 a goat, do you honestly think I have ever once considered KILLING one to find out?"

I happen to know for a fact that sex-linked *meatiness* is more than possible in goats, or in any other animal. Dairy-ness, I guess I will find out. Although it seems to be working fine for Nubians and for Dairy Sheep. Forgive me if I am getting you mixed up with someone else; but mygoats, aren't you planning on majoring in this stuff? If so, you'll be well schooled up in sex-linked genetic traits by the time you finish your second semester of microbiology.

YOU may not want goats that are dual or triple purpose. YOU may not want to bother with fiber producing goats.. YOU probably don't want milk sheep either. That does not mean that other people are not interested in these things. If people WEREN'T interested in such things, then we wouldn't be getting three or four thread a month with people asking about "What is a good multi-purpose breed?"

Don't you think it is simply kinda mean and nasty to basically tell folks, "You are idiots for wanting something like that. It will never happen. You can't do it. Even if you manage to find a way to do it, no one will want it and you'll lose money. YOUR dream is worthless."

My best friend wants to design and build a *diesel* race bike...so he can have a race bike that he can make bio-diesel for.....

No matter WHAT I, personally, might think about it (not into racing, not really into motorcycles, certainly not into racing motorcycles), do you think it would be kind of me, or well mannered, or even polite to tell him that his hopes and plans are worthless, that you can't build a racing, diesel motorcycle and that even if you could, no one would want it so his dreams are worthless?

However, I forgive you. And while you are being negative, nasty, and trying to smile about it because you have a personal prejudice against multi-purpose goats, I think that instead of waiting on the lottery, I'll go make some plans on how to accomplish this goal on a smaller scale that is repeatable.

After all, semen is cheap.

[CaliannG]

The problem, HF, is that there is not a lot of information available to us HERE, in the U.S., on goat breeds other than our common ones.

Heck, think of other things we don't have a lot of information on. Until a few months ago, I did not know there were breeds of sheep and horses that were developed specifically for commercial DAIRY production.

Huh? Sheep milk? Mare's milk? But yes....and some of those breeds of milk sheep are producing numbers to rival our goats. (I might add that they are also producing fleece and meat)

There are so many things we aren't away of simply because we don't have those things HERE.

And yes, you get to play with ALL the baby goats. I'll run the ranch and breeding program.

[rootsandwings]

my friend milks her pygora. She gets about a pint a day of sweet, rich, buttery milk (once a day milking) and is very happy with the fiber (she spins) I don't know about the meat aspect, but aren't pygmies meaty for their size?

anyway, she keeps trying to get me to breed my fuzzy mini-nubian to the pygora's sire for mini-nubiangoras. So far I've resisted.

[CaliannG]

LOL Well, rootsandwings, once I get my dream breed developed and the genetics all stabilized (and I hope to have two breeds in one...one that gives cashmere fiber, and one that gives mohair fiber...and the twain shall NOT interbreed!), I had hoped to miniaturize them.

So, in 20 years or so, look for Mini Taameres and Mini Taagoras.

And they WON'T be crossbreeds by then...they will be breeds in their own right, throwing the standard true.

And yes, Pygmies are a meat breed.

[CaliannG]

~mutter, grumbles, complains, and otherwise acts unpleasant~ And this is exactly what I mean by information not being available....

I have come across a few more breeds that are *supposedly* dual and triple purpose...but I can't get any numbers and statistics on them. NOT because there haven't been studies done on them and experiments documented about them, but because:

1. I don't read Russian.
2. I don't read Chinese.
3. Nope, I don't read Arabic either!

The information is out there, but not in a form that makes it available to me.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Wow, Caliann, this has been extremely interesiing to read. I want to help intertain fuzzy baby goats on this ranch of yours. As far as milk sheep (some places use yaks milk and in Peru guinea pigs are a major source of meat) over in France the milk of the Lacaune is used to make the country's famous Roquefort cheese. It isn't considered really Roquefort cheese if it doesn't come from the milk of a Lacaune sheep.

[CaliannG]

~laughs~ Fuzzy, blue-eyed, white-to-cream colored, silky soft baby goats.

I mean, if I am going to do a huge, multi-thousand animal breeding program, I might as well fix ALL the traits I want, right? And white-to-cream colored fiber is easier to dye a multitude of shades...which is why many breeds of sheep have been bred for thousands of years to be white.

You see, NOW I know about milk sheep. I even know that Lacaune is the major breed in France, but the other high-producing, major breed is the East Friesian.

But, having been born and bred here in the U.S., it wasn't until recently that a bit of internet research led me to a mention of that, and then off on a tangent that taught me more than I wanted to know about milk sheep.

It's not that I was prejudice about them, it was simply that the idea of dairy sheep and horses hadn't occurred to me. Sheep are something you eat or shear....and you ride horses. The idea of hooking them up to a milking machine just wasn't something that my experience encouraged me to consider.

Now, I also know that my cheesy sweetie, Ricotta, also comes from sheep.

I'm even thinking of maybe getting a couple of dairy/merino crosses maybe. I *am* one of those people that likes to play with fiber and textile arts, so fiber-producing animals are a bonus to me.

<--- all for a milk/meat/fiber producing menagerie if I can have one.

A LONG time ago, I remember mentioning that I was seeking fiber/milk breeds, that I was interested in dual purpose, fiber producing animals, and did anyone also know a good dual purpose Angora Rabbit too?

My DH, as well as the forum, busted up laughing....simultaneously.... with DH swearing that NOTHING was going to induce him to milk rabbits...and the forum asking how I was planning on milking rabbits.

[Alice In TX/MO]

I think my brain hurts now, and I forgot what I was going to reply here.



Edited to add: Sorry for the debate coach moment, but the King Ranch in south Texas developed the Santa Gertrudis cattle breed. They aren't exactly in the red in their bookkeeping.

http://santagertrudis.com/