buck, emergency?

rootsandwings · #1 11/26/10, 06:20 PM

I wormed a 105 lb yearling buck with 10cc valbazen Wednesday evening. I know from a fecal he had an excessively heavy load - also he should weigh a lot more - he's a nubian. ivomec and cydectin failed me and it took me 2 weeks to get the valbazen - I had to order it.

this morning he was butting heads with the other buck over the hay - the other buck at a huge quantity of the hay,. so I don't think it's the hay.

tonight he is moaning, wobbly, and without appetite. peeing easily but not in great quantity. His abdomen feels stuffed with bread dough. eye membranes very pale pink.

he is up to date on CD&T, but I gave him 10 cc anti-toxin anyway. I also gave him 60cc glucose solution sub-Q and a tablespoon of baking soda in a drench.

I do not have an adequate thermometer - it was stepped on.

My vet is closed until Monday. I have an emergency #, but the vet that is closed is the best I've got and second best is likely to be not so good. - I'll call if you think this is a vet emergency.

I have a small quantity of betadine on hand.

jill.costello · #2 11/26/10, 06:27 PM

I might try Thiamine (vitamin B-1) sub-Q if you have it; sounds like maybe he's got a mess of dead worms slowing him down. If all you have is B-Complex injectable, then load him up with a good 8-10cc split in 2 different sites.

Do you mean you have Banamine? Banamine will help him if you think he's in pain; is he grinding his teeth? .5cc - 1.0cc is what I would give not more than 2x per day.

rootsandwings · #3 11/26/10, 06:42 PM

banamine - bad spelling and autocorrect, sorry. he is moaning. Standing head down. Yes, my first guess would be dead worms. the only B-1 I have is in 100 mg tablets. Is there a way to clear the worms out?

HappyFarmer · #4 11/26/10, 06:58 PM

If the dead worms are stopping him up, he may be going septic. Are the worms tapes or other? Tapes can stop him up while blood sucking worms he can bleed to death internally.

I'd give him the antitoxin and B-complex. I'd drench him with mineral oil, and also give him a baby enema to move things out to make room for more if he can pass it/them (if tapes).

I'd also go buy a thermometer to check his temp before treating further. If he has a fever I'd call the vet given these circumstances.

After the fact I know, but if a goat has an excessive wormload it's better to dose at first with 1/2 the recommended dosage then repeat at full strenght for this very reason.
HF

rootsandwings · #5 11/26/10, 07:02 PM

strogyles, not tapes.

how much mineral oil?

He's now drooling a little bit (teaspoon?) periodically (2x 15-20 min? between)

rootsandwings · #6 11/26/10, 07:06 PM

HF - yet another encouraging example of me not knowing what I don't know (you can see I asked about dosage earlier in the forum, didn't know I should say he had an extremely heavy load.) I seem to get most of my education over dead bodies.

I am going to have to go to tsp (which will probably be out of everything) for B-complex, injectable iron, and a thermometer.

I gave him the 10cc antitoxin already.

I also have pen G on hand - use in case of sepcis?

HappyFarmer · #7 11/26/10, 07:11 PM

Post deleted.

HappyFarmer · #8 11/26/10, 07:19 PM

Roadsandwings:

If I said something to upset you it was not meant to.
I can't help how I type I just type that is just me. I only came here to try to offer some suggestions and apparently I upset you though I still don't see it. I'll offer my last suggestion: call the vet

I hope your buck feels better soon.

HF

rootsandwings · #9 11/26/10, 07:34 PM

Nothing you said upset me! Please help if you can. I am upset because I feel stupid and my buck seems like he is dying. And my resources are poor. dh doesn't want me to call the vet because the bill will almost certainly be more han twice the monetary value of the animal. Please don't quit helping if you can!

I am going to Tsc now.

HappyFarmer · #10 11/26/10, 07:44 PM

I guess I read that wrong, sorry.

If tapes give mineral oil & enema-might help move them along. They would be visible in fresh droppings.

If strongyls the problem is probably internal bleeding if the worms were that heavy. Support him with the B-Complex, and redcell, and Antitoxin. Keep him warm, offer fresh hay & water no grain concentrates. The banamine will help with the pain but not the issue. 1cc/100lbs is the doseage. Do NOT give aspirin as a substitute.

Take his temp. Start him on Pennicillain if he has a fever.

Internal bleeding I'm not sure a vet could help much anyways besides support like you will be doing.

HF

CaliannG · #11 11/26/10, 08:17 PM

rootsandwings:

I severely second the mineral oil, even if it IS strongyls. His symptoms say that he is plugged in some way, with *possible* internal bleeding.

Mineral oil drench...then back it up with some RedCell and B-Complex. The mineeral oil will clear out any blockages, whether they are blockages of strongyls or tapes....and the red cell and B-complex will up his blood production.

Even a blockage of tapes could cause tearing, and hence internal bleeding, in the intestines...so I would treat for both.

I cannot tell you how many lives have been saved by mineral oil at my place.

Quote:

I seem to get most of my education over dead bodies.

~hugs!~ I am so sorry hon. If it makes you feel any better, many of us have had some bits of heart-rending education. Let's just say that I would whole-heartedly agree with you in that such a learning curve is major, major suckage.

Natural Beauty Farm · #12 11/26/10, 08:22 PM

Take a breath. More goats are killed when we try to help more.

Remove all food. Offer warm water.

If its not tapes, then he is not plugged from worms, his system is shutting down.
Thiamine will help, only a vet can give you it, but you can load him with Fortified B Complex, runs about $20 a bottle, the other stuff is watered down too much. B-1 tablets will work, just feed whole or crush(better/faster absorption) and put down his throat.

An enema will help clean him out, but will also dehydrate and put him in more pain. I'd wait. Check his rumen to see if it "gurgles" 30 min after giving Thiamine. If it does then he is working things out on his own.

Banamine will suppress his rumen and you want it active and going strong.

Keep him warm.
If you can't get inj iron, red cell from someone with horses will help restore iron, but rebuilding cells takes months. Its not going to be a miracle tonight. Only a blood transfusion will bring him back if he is really depleted.

Good luck

HappyFarmer · #13 11/26/10, 08:34 PM

Just wanted to add that you can't overdose on the B-complex (Yes, the fortified stuff!). And also you'll want to re-administer the Antitoxin in 12 hours.

HF

motdaugrnds · #14 11/26/10, 08:45 PM

"hugs" .. Many of learn from our own animals, some dying/dead. (Vets in my area are of no help with goats; so I've learned most from these forums and from listening/watching my goats.)

Keep him warm and yourself warm as well. Do not blame yourself as you are obviously doing all you can.

rootsandwings · #15 11/26/10, 08:47 PM

how much?!

I have injectable iron. (I got to Tsc 3min after close and pried the door open - I forgot the stupid thermometer)
I have pen g.
I have red cell.
I have only reg. b complex I have 100mg thiamin tabs, I have no dosage information.

HappyFarmer · #16 11/26/10, 09:09 PM

Awwwwww, no thermometer, you say he seems like he's dying, give him 1cc pen/100#'s, Repeat in 6 hours, then 1cc/100#'s 1xday till 1 day after symptoms are better. i normally don't give Antibio unless fever is present. In this case I'd make an exception.

All B Vitamins are water soluable, they will pee out what they don't use. Not sure on the combo of reg b-complex and pills, guessing here 10 cc or more b-complex & 6 pills. Again you cannot overdose. Remember the pills probably won't absorb the full stated amount so go higher. I would not wait, the pills will take a while to break down.

Redcell I'd probably give 20cc's or so daily until eyes turn pink.

Inject Iron-I think I'd opt for EITHER redcell OR Inj Iron. Check the bottle for dosage if you go with the injectible. My preference would be redcell at 20cc's orally, plus it has other good stuff in it.

If you have Epiphrine on hand keep it handy in case of allergic reaction.

HF

rootsandwings · #17 11/26/10, 09:18 PM

gave him 1cc injectable iron (my 1st im shot and I think he lost 1/2cc of blood) and 12cc b complex - 6hip, 6 shoulder. he was lying flat out on his side, legs extended, silent. 15 minutes later gurgling noises, bellowing to wake the dead and trying to stand, but can't.

no poop since AT LEAST 5:30 (4 hours) mineral oil? - how much?

I put up 2 heat lamps (low 20's tonight)

he won't drink, so how long do I wait before I drench w/ red cell? (injectable says 1cc/2 days - for pigs.)

HappyFarmer · #18 11/26/10, 09:25 PM

He does not sound good at all. Sounds like you are losing him.

If you orally dose him he will choke on it if he's down.

Being he's down and out, probably on his way out, I'd give him another antitoxin shot, and more b-complex. Then I'd say a prayer for your boy.

Has he had gurgling the whole time? Maybe something else is happening besides worm back-up.
HF
p.s. please replace your thermometer asap, and keep a spare in case one gets broke.

Minelson · #19 11/26/10, 09:36 PM

I'll let the pros give the advice...I'm watching this and praying for you and your buck.

rootsandwings · #20 11/26/10, 09:37 PM

no, the gurgling started after the b complex - like tummy rumbling. but he is drooling again - head up, but turned back. legs tucked under instead of lying flat.

I used the stick one hand in his armpit, stick the other in the armpit of the other goat, wait, switch, method and he is definitely warmer than the other goat. gave him the pen g.

when I got home I told my family he'd be dead in an hour. now he looks like he'll be dead in the morning (honest to god he seemed FINE at 5:00!) so, he's sort of better.

I'm going to give him mre b complex.