To lute.....

CaliannG · #1 10/24/10, 10:15 PM

...or not to lute. That may be the question.

I have gotten this AMAZING chance at this BEAUTIFUL doe, that is actually within my price range, has a pedigree of stars and champions longer than my arm, is in excellent health, and throws LOVELY kids....a few of her daughters have made GCH themselves.

She is an older doe, around 9 years old. But still in beautiful shape and has been very well cared for.

Now, the only problem. She is between 1 and 2 months bred to God-knows-what Grade buck that has been kept with her. If she was a couple of years younger, there would be no question....just let her have her kids, and breed her to a worthy buck next year.

However, she isn't. So, what do ya'll think? Should I lute her and then, next month or the month after, take her down to the AI clinic and have her inseminated with a buck as lofty as she? If I lute her this late in the season, what are the chances of her coming into estrus again this year? She is a Swiss breed. (The AI clinic can bring her into heat with their system, but there is not a guarantee that she will ovulate, yanno?)

WWYD? ~grinz~

KSALguy · #2 10/24/10, 10:44 PM

well she has carried the pregnancy long enough that you will have a notisable fetus expelled, there is no guarantee how soon she will come back into heat, and AI in goats last i was informed was not as relyable as in cattle, if you had a suitable buck on hand to live cover her and if she came right back into heat and was not as far along then by all means start over if thats what you wanted,

9 years old for a well cared fore animal in really good shape is not that old, she still has several more years to produce for you unless you just want to retire her, there are people on here who have had productive does into the double digits,

what breed/quality of buck was she with? did you see the buck? is he really so terrible that one batch of kids from him is going to be a major problem?, yes i understand he is not the best and likely not going to produce registerable kids but any bucklings can go to freezer camp and any doelings can still be milked,

CaliannG · #3 10/24/10, 10:58 PM

It's not that the buck was absolutely terrible.... he's from good milking lines, a Sanaan/Lamancha/Alpine/Something Else cross. It is more along the lines of that I want to get *away* from grades and into registered, nicely pedigreed goats.

The AI clinic local to here has a 15 day AI program for goats, sheep and deer. They don't do cattle at all. The main question I have is if I lute her, would I be able to reasonably expect to be able to re-breed her *this* season, or would I have to wait until next year?

If the chances are that I wouldn't be able to re-breed her ANYWAY until next year, then I won't bother. But if I have a more-than-even chance of re-breeding, I would really prefer to do so, yanno?

KSALguy · #4 10/24/10, 11:41 PM

that would probably be a good question for the AI clinic, Swiss breeds are seasonal and she is a mature animal, it could go eather way, there is still fall months left to maybe have her cycle, if your AI clinic knows their stuff they should have the info and means to get it accomplished, its still going to probably be a gamble though,

dosthouhavemilk · #5 10/25/10, 07:43 AM

Definitely talk to the clinic and get their input. We luted our then coming 10 year old back in November of last year. She is 1/2 LaMancha/Alpine, 1/2 Saanen. Rarely had I seen her in heat earlier than October.
I had originally wanted to AI her, but mostly just wanted a straight dairy kid, not a 1/16 Boer offspring (my little 7/8 Alpine, 1/8 Boer got her). She was a month or so into the pregnancy when we luted (bred 9/28). We luted her (and the other Saanen doe) on 11/4. It took almost three months for her cycles to even out again to feel confident she was having a fertile heat.
She was hand bred to my Senior Polled Nubian herdsire on 1/16. That late in the season, on an aged doe, after aborting, I was not risking AI.
She delivered twin doelings by that breeding on 6/19/10. A 5+ pound doeling and an afterthought that weighed 1 pound, 15 ounces. Both are doing great now!
Momma is now 10 years, 9 months old. She has started going downhill in the past two weeks and I do not know if we will get another year out of her at this stage or not. She has been well cared for and has lived here her entire life.
If it were me, I would probably Lute her. I would also look for live service backup locally. Just in case.
My understanding is that it is more difficult to settle older does via AI.

CaliannG · #6 10/25/10, 12:47 PM

That is certain a more reasonable thought.

Her breed is not common around here, but I know of a couple of breeders within a decent driving distance that I can call.

Cannon_Farms · #7 10/25/10, 01:29 PM

If it was my doe, I wouldnt put her through the stress if its an unwanted pregnancy it takes allot out of a doe (and humans) even if she didnt come back into heat I would rather her be refreshed than wore down by next season.
I would also not AI her, though a good semen processor will have a good product its not a sure thing, and defiantly can get more complicated and expensive than a live cover.
I would make the drive, with an experienced breeder I would even leave her for a couple days. Im trying to remember the name of the product my local processor uses (Mega bucks/Cam Faircloth) that will make the doe cycle within five days of pulling the tampon like thing out but I cant. Its labeled for sheep in the US labeled every where else for goats and sheep.
IF you go AI make sure you get the very best stuff you can get your hands on even if it has to be shipped

CaliannG · #8 10/25/10, 10:14 PM

I have figured, from time spent ogling all of the bucks that I can get a straw shipped, that the one I want is within my resources for two straws plus shipping.

Cannon, you are correct, I'd rather have her taking a break than having kids I am not interested in. It's not like I am in desperate need of her being in milk this year, I have other does that WILL be in milk.

However, I am also trying to find someone within a couple of hours of me that offers stud service. It doesn't seem that many people do. That, and according to my vet, dairy goats are not that big in Texas, and what you do find are mostly NDs or Nubians...Alpines are a bit rarer.

~sighs and chuckles~ Almost makes me wish I was back in Colorado....at least I *know* people there and it would be a bit easier to find a friend of a friend who would be willing to offer live cover.

chamoisee · #9 10/26/10, 12:04 AM

I was under the understanding that it's almost impossible to A.I. sheep vaginally.

At any rate, I wouldn't do it. Lutelysing a doe is not a sure fire thing, and A.I., especially after inducing ovulation, is also not a sure thing.

If you meet people who tell you that they have a 100% success rate on A.I. per heat, they are lying, period.

Bottom line is, you could lute the doe and she might not miscarry. You could lute her and have her rebred to a live buck, and if she come back into heat after bleeding and getting things built back up, she might take. There is a chance she could be A.I.'d successfully after luting her. There is also a significant chance that you could end up with her not kidding out at all.

Cannon_Farms · #10 10/26/10, 05:46 AM

If you want to find out what Cam has, here is his information, Mega Bucks Semen Service

(770) 826-4865

megabuckscf@aol.com

You can also find him all over the ADGA, I dont think he comes out to texas but he dose do quite a bit of travel this time of the year. I know he collected some nice semen the other day from some very impressive dairy bucks.

Cannon_Farms · #11 10/26/10, 05:48 AM

[QUOTE=chamoisee;4715353]I was under the understanding that it's almost impossible to A.I. sheep vaginally.

I can not speak for sheep, I am a sheep stupid person but I do know that those inserts where made for sheep so you could get a guaranteed ovulation within a set amount of time. I do not know if that means live cover or AI.

IndyGardenGal · #12 10/26/10, 09:22 AM

Your talking about the CIDRs and I've read some about them through different dairy goat sites. Many people are able to use them with great success.

CaliannG · #13 10/26/10, 11:49 AM

That's what my A.I. clinic does to insure ovulation. They have a 12 day + program where the does stay with them. First day is examination and testing to make sure she is healthy, not deficient in anything, and not already bred. (If any of the three above are lacking, they send the doe home)

Then they do special feeding, stuff that is high in concentrates of substances that are found in natural browse during that breeds regular cycle...to sort of get her body hip on the idea that it is the right *season* for breeding. Insertion of the CIDR takes place at this time also. Then remove that...then do Lute to bring her into standing heat...and when they feel everything is correct and the stars are aligned, the do the actual A.I. (Transcervical. You can also opt for the surgical A.I. where they inject directly into the Uterus, but it is invasive) 8-12 hours later, they do another straw, just as a back up.

You can opt for the program where they do all of this stuff and time everything, or you can just bring in your doe on the day you want the A.I. done, having done all of prep work yourself on your own place.

I'll check out Cam and see what he has available, CF.

Thanks for the info!

CaliannG · #14 10/26/10, 08:25 PM

~sighs~ I guess this is all a mute point. I was supposed to drive out to get her first thing in the morning, but the guy just called me and told me someone is picking up his whole herd tomorrow to take to Mexico and now I can't have her.

I hate flakes.

She'd be SO much better off with me than with someplace in Mexico that is just buying up herds.

chamoisee · #15 10/26/10, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon_Farms

I can not speak for sheep, I am a sheep stupid person but I do know that those inserts where made for sheep so you could get a guaranteed ovulation within a set amount of time. I do not know if that means live cover or AI.

I'm not talking about ovulation, but about A.I.. The cervix of a ewe is apparently too convoluted to maneuver an A.I. gun through.

Feathers-N-Fur · #16 10/27/10, 10:24 PM

Was curious so I read up on sheep AI. They go through the same hormonal prep as goats, but are inseminated laproscopically.

CaliannG · #17 10/27/10, 10:58 PM

The A.I. clinic local to me will do laproscopic insemination, or transcervical insemination...your choice. If you want, they will follow either procedure with a transcervical insemination 8-12 hours later, just to increase your chances of her catching.

Again, sadly, it is a moot point. Dh and I had spent some back-breaking time making quarters for the new doe where she could SEE the herd, but still would be quarantined, followed by making sure we had appointments set up with the Vet for Thursday, with the A.I. clinic for evaluation on Friday, yadda, yadda. Spent hours Tuesday night e-mailing back and forth with the wife of the seller, everything was straight on target that we would be driving out there the next morning to pick the doe up....and literally, in the middle of returning an e-mail to the wife (we had been trading e-mails about this, that, and the other about every 15 minutes), the husband calls me and says "Oops, sorry. Someone I have sold to before offered to take the entire herd, so you can't have her. The buyer is insistent on taking ALL of them. They are being shipped to Mexico."

Yeah, I know, no money changed hands. Yeah, I know, a gentleman's agreement is worth the paper it is written on. Yeah, I know....

But I still think it is pretty crappy that it happened AFTER all the work was done, appointments were made, etc. I had to spend Wednesday morning doing nothing but canceling appointments.

Ummm, yeah, I am a bit bitter and more than a bit disappointed.

Okay, whine mode off. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

RedSonja · #18 10/28/10, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Ummm, yeah, I am a bit bitter and more than a bit disappointed.

Okay, whine mode off. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

That just totally and completely STINKS. I think you're more than justified in being bitter and whiny. I think I'd be more than just bitter and whiny, I'd be breaking things. My redhead temper is usually well in check but sometimes...

All things happen for a reason. I try to remember that for the good *and* the bad. Just stinks that you got your hopes up to have this lovely doe and they flake on you.

CaliannG · #19 10/28/10, 05:30 PM

~smiles warmly~ Thanks, RedSonja!

I've been getting on myself about feeling so down about the whole incident.....so it is REALLY nice that you gave me some validation.

I am with you on the temper.

At some time in my life, though, I got tired of replacing my stuff whenever I got mad, so I decided to just yell and whine when I get upset.

I am checking into some other kinds of options, so maybe it was a good thing in that it is causing me to seek several other avenues to achieve my desires.

chamoisee · #20 10/29/10, 11:12 PM

Devil's advocate: a person who has bought before, and is offering to take the whole herd, is a lot more likely to be a sure thing. You know they will take them, and you know they will pay you. Now, you might have known that you would do these things as well, but he did not.

My rule is always, whoever gets there first with the cash, gets the goat, unless it is for a previous buyer I am on good terms with. In that case, I will hold the goat for them. When you wind up holding animals for people who don't show, or who wander around, insult your animals and farm, act like know it alls and are not, and try to pay you half of what you agreed to, or to pay you part now and part later......you learn to be this way. Sad but true.