Quantcast
bottle jaw - Homesteading Today
Homesteading Today

Come enter the Lehman's Aladdin Lamp Giveaway!

Go Back   Homesteading Today > Livestock Forums > Goats


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 10/23/10, 07:59 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068
bottle jaw

I have ayoung doe who was showing signs of a heavy worm load:
weight loss, decreased milk production, loose stools, poor appetite, lessened activity

I wormed her with ivomec injectable four days ago.

stools firmed up, appetite increased, milk production has increased, activity level has not.

this evening she came into the barn with classic bottle jaw. the only other time I've had bottle jaw it was the first symptom I noticed, I wormed the goat, and 12 hours later she was fine. this goat I already wormed. She does have pale eyelids however.

I know that if you kill off too many gut worms too fast they can bleed out, but I figured that was right away - not in a few days. could she have internal bleeding? Should I give her injectable iron? How much? she weighs about 90lbs.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10/23/10, 08:23 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 31,299

It could be the Ivomec isn't doing the job.
I'd worm her again with a different wormer ASAP.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10/23/10, 08:51 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

How did you administer the Ivomec, and at what dose?

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10/24/10, 04:16 AM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068

2.5 cc subQ - I fnd it odd that it has apparently corrected everything BUT the anemia.

has anyone used injectable iron in their goats?

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10/24/10, 05:39 AM
Jyllie63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootsandwings View Post
2.5 cc subQ - I fnd it odd that it has apparently corrected everything BUT the anemia.

has anyone used injectable iron in their goats?
When my doe had bottlejaw I used Red Cell (horse aisle TSC) and it was orally. It was a regimen that had to be done for a couple of weeks, but the eyelids did eventually return to a nice pink...just took time.
__________________

~Jill~

Riverbend Farm

WWW.Freewebs.com/jyllie63

I always have Goatmilk soap for sale

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10/24/10, 06:21 AM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

In goats, dewormers are supposed to be administered orally. Administer round two by squirting that dose into the goat's mouth.

Did you do fecal testing before and after?

BTW, it takes almost a month for the bone marrow to generate enough red blood cells to see an improvement in anemia.

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10/24/10, 01:58 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068

Alice, do you know why the bottle jaw symptoms disappeared so quickly in my first goat then? really - she had the soft swollen under jaw (felt like milk goiter but was from chin to throat) and I wormed her (subQ with ivomec) and in 12 hours it was gone. (the eyelids did take weeks)

Also, can someone tell me why goats are wormed orally? I was doing that, and then a friend who has had goats for several years told me she was using the ivomec injectable subQ on the advice of her vet and that it worked great and I switched because the dosage is so much easier to control and the goats don't try to spit it out and kill me. And, aside from the current case, in two years and 11 goats it seems to work here as well (I have only had this confirmed with a vet performed fecal once)

and, I re-wormed her - orally, with safeguard for goats, but if it takes that long to regenerate red blood cells, maybe she didn't actually need it and it was just "leftover" anemia?

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10/24/10, 07:21 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 64

I would re-worm her with moxidectin. I use quest horse wormer. 1.5cc/100lbs. You need to squirt the quest into a syringe in order to get an accurate dose. This is my wormer of choice when I purchase a new goat or if I am helping somone with a goat in trouble. You can then do follow up treatment with red cell to correct the anemia caused by the heavy worm load.

This sounds like a goat that needs help quickly-please don't wait a week to go to town and get the quest, it may be too late.

Chris

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10/24/10, 07:25 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 64

I forgot to mention that quest horse wormer is a gel and is given orally. Igive all wormers here on my farm orally and have been very happy with the results.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10/24/10, 07:48 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

I have Dr. David Pugh's veterinary college text book, "Sheep and Goat Medicine." It says to give ALL dewormers orally.

Edited to add:
I found the sentence that explains it:
"... refrain from injecting or using pour-on macrolide preparations designed for cattle in small ruminants. This practice may enhance the development of resistant strains of some internal parasites because of inappropriately low drug absorption (with pour on use) or long term subtherapeutic levels (with injection.)"

In other words, the pour-on isn't absorbed well by goats causing a low level of the drug in the goat's system, and injecting it causes a low level of the drug in the goat's system. Both methods of treatment enable the worms to develop immunity to the dewormer. Give it at the correct dose (much higher than labeled for cattle) orally to successfully get rid of the worms and avoid contributing to the immune worm problems.

http://www.amazon.com/Sheep-Goat-Med.../dp/0721690521

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus


Last edited by Alice In TX/MO; 10/24/10 at 08:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10/24/10, 07:50 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

Safeguard has been over used so much that most goat worms (other than tapeworms) are immune to it.

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus


Last edited by Alice In TX/MO; 10/24/10 at 08:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10/24/10, 07:51 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068

so how long SHOULD it take for the bottle jaw to clear up?

her poop is firm and beginning to have pellet definition. she eats a little more each day. Her feed has some iron in it. She also has free access to goat minerals - which she is currently enjoying a lot of. I get a little more milk each day, She gets up on the stand happily, She walks around the pasture and grazes, she is just less active than normal for her - and apparently very anemic.

She has now had two wormers in less than a week and I really don't want to give her a third.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10/24/10, 07:54 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068

oh, and I chose the safeguard because the chemical is the same (fenbensomething) as in panacure - which is what the vet suggests for ivomec resistant worms around here, and the bottle had the correct dosages listed for goats by weight - which the panacure - being for horses, did not. the %age was also the same as in the panacure horse.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10/24/10, 08:06 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

Most vets don't know squat about goats. Sorry.

Most dewormers are used off label because there aren't enough goats out here for the drug companies to spend the money on testing. This was told to me by an Ivomec rep at a farm show. You really must go off label because the things labeled for goats don't work.... due to over use and resistant worms.

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10/24/10, 09:16 PM
Jyllie63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootsandwings View Post
so how long SHOULD it take for the bottle jaw to clear up?

her poop is firm and beginning to have pellet definition. she eats a little more each day. Her feed has some iron in it. She also has free access to goat minerals - which she is currently enjoying a lot of. I get a little more milk each day, She gets up on the stand happily, She walks around the pasture and grazes, she is just less active than normal for her - and apparently very anemic.

She has now had two wormers in less than a week and I really don't want to give her a third.
It took my doe about 2 weeks to completely lose the bottlejaw and about a month to get the healthy red back into the eyelids. This was with redcell therapy.

And Alice is right...if you want goat info listen to the folks here...not your vet!
__________________

~Jill~

Riverbend Farm

WWW.Freewebs.com/jyllie63

I always have Goatmilk soap for sale

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10/25/10, 10:50 AM
TheLands's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Elgin, TX
Posts: 110

Hi all. I have been away from the site for a while.

I have given my goats wormer subQ every time I have done it and it works great for me. My goats give me a really hard time with drench and it is almost impossible to get it in them that way so I tried the subQ and found it was much better and I have never had a problem with them including in the injection site.

My six yr old got bottle jaw a couple times and it went down within 12 hours of dewormer but the anemia took quite a while. Her energy level was back up in just a day or so. I gave her a B complex injection a few hours after the Ivermec injection also....

Just my 2 cents.

__________________

Matt and Lynda Land
Cingo Bella Farms
http://www.cingobellafarms.com
http://blog.cingobellafarms.com

Last edited by TheLands; 10/25/10 at 10:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10/25/10, 12:32 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068

thank you TheLands - at least I feel less crazy. That is the problem I have - that "low level persistence" seems like less of a risk to me than a goat who actually only swallowed
half a dose, or maybe a third, or maybe two thirds.... I have no idea, the stupid goat is now coughing out cud to get rid of the wormer....

I don't know if the safeguard did anything, but the swelling is less today but not gone. I don't intend to treat further for now.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10/25/10, 09:14 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

I just depends on if you want to help create a bigger problem with worms in the future by using the wrong method of administration or solve your current problem by using the correct method.

If your goats are spitting out the dewormer, you need to get the drench gun tip past the 'hump' of their tongue.

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10/26/10, 09:18 AM
TheLands's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Elgin, TX
Posts: 110

I swear I can shove the dench down some of their throats and they still spit it out. Like said above they will spit out cud to get rid of it. I have only had a big problem with one of them. The rest are fine and I did the injection. I have had several say drench and several say injection is fine. I am not sure anyone knows 100% what is the "right way" to do it. You have to do what is best for your herd. It is less trauma on them to inject so that is what I do..... With no problems.

One of my girls had a large load (we do fecal tests) and I did the injection then a followup after two weeks. She did great. Didn't make her sick and the worm load was down to below normal after.

The question I have I guess is if it works, it doesn't hurt the goat or make it sick, and the rest of the herd has very low counts (since they all have them normally from what I read), is it really the "wrong" way to do it?

__________________

Matt and Lynda Land
Cingo Bella Farms
http://www.cingobellafarms.com
http://blog.cingobellafarms.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10/26/10, 12:30 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

If it causes the remaining worms to develop and pass on resistance, is it the right thing to do?

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10/26/10, 06:35 PM
TheLands's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Elgin, TX
Posts: 110

Guess everyone has their own opinion...

__________________

Matt and Lynda Land
Cingo Bella Farms
http://www.cingobellafarms.com
http://blog.cingobellafarms.com
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10/26/10, 08:04 PM
CaliannG's Avatar
She who waits....
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: East of Bryan, Texas
Posts: 6,796

Alright. ~sighs~ I'm am breaking out my Science, so everyone stand back.

The research work done on anthelmintics and insecticides in goats (as compared to sheep) was done in the late 80's and early 90's. Dr. Bogan in 1989, Dr. Sangster in 1991, and Dr. Hennesey in 1993 all found that when goats were given anthelmintics and insecticides I.M., SubQ, or as a pour on drench, the goats metabolized the anthelmintics and insecticides so fast that it had a limited effect on current parasite loads and caused parasitic resistance, creating difficulties in reducing parasite load as early as 2 months later.

Subsequent studies only upheld previous findings. Therefore, by 1997, (International Journal of Parasitology, American Journal of Veterinary Medicine, Acta Tropica, Veterinary Parasitology), this knowledge about how goats metabolize anthelmintics and insecticides was common knowledge, and is still common knowledge to this day.

There have been NO studies done that have refuted the findings and conclusions of those previously done. The latest study was done in 2006 in Africa, and supported the findings of the earlier studies.


What all this MEANS for the small herd owner is:

Sure, you can worm SubQ, I.M. or even Pour -On, and it might help you out THIS time. But by doing so, you are increasing the parasitic resistance IN YOUR OWN HERD, as well as the local parasitic resistance, and eventually, it is going to bite you in the butt, HARD. Then, your practices will bite your *neighbor* in the butt hard.

I am thankful that I do not live nearby folks who do this.

Anyone who wants to learn more than they wanted to know about anthelmintic resistance in goats is welcome to simply go to Google Scholar ( www.scholar.google.com ) and do a search for ' anthelmintics goats' to turn up thousands of scientific articles and studies on the subject.

ETA: In other words, this stance is not opinion, it is FACT, substantiated by scientists and researchers around the world for the last 20 years.

__________________

Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck


Last edited by CaliannG; 10/26/10 at 08:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10/26/10, 08:16 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 31,299
Quote:
I have had several say drench and several say injection is fine. I am not sure anyone knows 100% what is the "right way" to do it
All STUDIES have shown oral is the best for sheep and goats.

You'll hear lots of opinions from people who think their way is best, but SCIENCE says do it orally
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10/26/10, 08:49 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

Thank you!!

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10/26/10, 09:00 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,068

ok, but how do I keep the wormer down? Is there something that I can mix it with (like dogs and peanut butter?) (and please don't flame me if peanut butter is bad for dogs. I do not have dogs. My father had a dog and he put the heartworm stuff in peanut butter and the dog ate it and I was six so that is all I know.)

because I have a goat that literally coughs up cud and shakes her head and flings drooly grossness around when I worm her.

Also, I have alpacas, and they get ivomec injections every 30 days for m-worm and I have limited resources, but the best I can find out that is common and correct practice, and are they breeding resistant worms anyway, so that it really doesn't matter I won't be able to use Ivomec on my goats soon anyway?

but I guess the safeguard worked?

the goat is better tonight - normal poop, normal eating, normal jaw, normal shoving-out-the-gate-to-climb-all-over-the-lady-with-the-food....

__________________

Last edited by rootsandwings; 10/26/10 at 09:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10/26/10, 09:40 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
More dharma, less drama.
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
Posts: 28,874

Safeguard works on tapeworms. Others..... not reliable.

You can mix the dewormer with molasses or snow cone syrup.

__________________

Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10/26/10, 09:41 PM
CaliannG's Avatar
She who waits....
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: East of Bryan, Texas
Posts: 6,796

Alpaca's, and the rest of the dromedary family, do not metabolize as fast as sheep and goats, so your alpacas aren't breeding resistant parasites, and *their* worm load is getting the full brunt of the stuff you inject into them.

Basically, when it comes to wormer, you keep using the same wormer until and unless is starts not working, rather than going from wormer to wormer every time. Again, it is to keep from building up resistance in the parasites. By using the same one *until* they build up resistance to it, and only THEN hitting them with something new, you both wipe out your parasite load, and keep them from getting a tolerance for anything you might need to mopve to later on down the road.

As to keep from getting the messy, green, drooly, goodness shaken all over you....

I use an actual goat halter, rather than a collar, when worming. I tie the clip overhead, so that it keeps the goats head UP...not stretched on tippy toe, but with the nose pointed towards the sky as much as possible...THEN I drench.

THEN I leave them tied for a few minutes, until I am sure the drench is ALL the way down, and let them loose.

By using the halter ($8.99 at my local Co-op) to keep their head tilted up, I don't get green, gooey goodness all over me, and the goats don't have as much of a chance to spit it out.

__________________

Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10/27/10, 06:48 AM
Jyllie63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,148

I mix the wormer with kool-aid or orange juice. They think they are getting a treat

__________________

~Jill~

Riverbend Farm

WWW.Freewebs.com/jyllie63

I always have Goatmilk soap for sale

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10/27/10, 08:56 AM
TheLands's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Elgin, TX
Posts: 110

I stand corrected....

CaliannG - Thank you for posting that. I had not seen it before.

I know you all have been taking care of goats for a long time. I know that you all have ways you do things. Half the time I see opinions on here that are just that opinions and if someone disagrees bad on them. I know everyone is passionate about their goats. I think it is wonderful. I am also. But I really feel some of the responses on here are short and bitter. It isn't needed. So we have done something you either don't agree with or you know is wrong. If you know it is wrong and you can tell me why, tell me..... If it comes across as an opinion that is how I am going to take it.

Luckily I have only done injections a few times. I haven't had a large worm problem and only in one goat that I just lost..... So now I know better. I saw online it was ok to inject so that is what I did. I will have to find that information again.... Hmmm.....

Thanks again for the reasoning and proof to show that it isn't just an opinion......

Oh and my goats love peanut butter..... so maybe I can do it that way? Or is peanut butter bad for them too.......

__________________

Matt and Lynda Land
Cingo Bella Farms
http://www.cingobellafarms.com
http://blog.cingobellafarms.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10/27/10, 12:31 PM
CaliannG's Avatar
She who waits....
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: East of Bryan, Texas
Posts: 6,796

~grinz hugely~ If peanut butter is all that awful for them, then I am afraid that I, myself, am committing slow goat-icide.

I don't know of any studies that have conclusions that peanuts in ANY form are *bad* for goats. There are some studies that suggest that folks who are allergic to peanuts also have reactions from the milk of goats that are fed peanuts.

Peanut hay, peanut cake, peanut oil meal, and peanut haulms are all commonly fed to goats in different areas of the world, including here in the U.S. I wouldn't think that peanut butter is going to do a bit of harm. In fact, a study done in Somalia (Tropical Animal Health and Production, 2008) concluded that peanut cake supplementation provided a 2.2% increase of weight gain in meat goats over the control group. ~smiles~

Oh, and Lynda, when it comes to people who have been doing the goats for a while, sometimes it is difficult to remember HOW one knows these things, especially with older information. A person may have read a bunch of studies in the mid 90's and changed their way of herd management due to the findings of those studies, and it simply became part of their routine. 15 years later, they know they do something THIS way, but they may not remember all of the WHYs of it. It has become the habit of 15 years and the reasons behind it get a little foggy.

~smiles~ Just a little compassion for those of us who spend a lot of time considering and pondering the hereafter....we walk into the kitchen and wonder what we're here after.

Edited to add: Studies have shown that, nutritionally, alfalfa is the best legume crop for goats. However, perennial peanuts are the second best.

__________________

Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck


Last edited by CaliannG; 10/27/10 at 12:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 PM.