Is Eradication Even Possible?

CaliannG · #1 10/22/10, 08:39 PM

I took one of my Nubian does to the vet today, because she had a lump on her shoulder that was giving me the heeby-jeebies.

My vet did the lancing, collecting, etc. We won't know FOR SURE until next week, but both she and I figure it is CL from the state of the erudite. This is from a doe that blood tested negative just 5 months ago.

When I bemoaned that fact to my vet, that all my goats are tested, that I have a closed herd, that now I need to do quarantine, test every other goat, and how I am not going to like butchering this doe, my vet looked at me with wide eyes.

"Why would you butcher her? Just quarantine her if and when she gets an abscess. You can't *escape* CL here. This is a CL endemic area... not as bad as Colorado and Utah, but still bad. The DEER have CL and pass it on through soil and flies. Look it up yourself."

So I came home, put my patient girl in quarantine, and then went to researching.

Yes, it survives in the soil for up to 55 days.

(Am J Vet Res. 1986 Apr;47(4):713-5.
Survival of Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis in axenic purulent exudate on common barnyard fomites.

Augustine JL, Renshaw HW.)

Yes, it is transmitted by house flies, stable flies, deer flies, horse flies, and pretty much anything that bites. The disease survives in flies for up to four hours.

(Rev Sci Tech. 1999 Dec ;18 (3):681-90 10588012 Cit:4
The role of houseflies (Musca domestica) in harbouring Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis in dairy herds in Israel.
[My paper] Y Braverman, A Chizov-Ginzburg, A Saran, M Winkler
Kimron Veterinary Institute, Beit Dagan, Israel.

et Q. 1996 Sep ;18 (3):87-9 8903139 Cit:6
Mastitis in dairy cattle caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis and the feasibility of transmission by houseflies. I.
I Yeruham, Y Braverman, N Y Shpigel, A Chizov-Ginzburg, A Saran, M Winkler
Koret School of Veterinary Medicine, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Bet Dagan, Israel. )

And yes, deer have it too, the same form that infects sheep and goats. Especially the white-tailed deer that are all over here.

(J Wildl Dis. 1973 Jan;9(1):56-7.
Caseous lymphadenitis in white-tailed deer.

Stauber E, Armstrong P, Chamberlain K, Gorgen B.)

So, it leaves me the question: Is it even possible for me to ENSURE a safe herd? I thought I was doing just that, but I don't have the money to invest in deer-proof fencing, and I don't even know where to start to ensure no flies EVER manage to bite my goats that have previously munched on an infected area of a deer.

So I am vacillating... on one hand, I DON'T want an infected herd. My first thought was to first butcher this doe, and then butcher ANY of my goats that came up with a positive, even if that meant I had to kill my entire herd.

But is that feasible if I buy certified, CLA free, multiple-times-tested goats 3 months from now (when it would have died out in the soil if it is even there from this goat), only to find that my herd gets infected AGAIN from wandering deer, biting flies, or even contamination from the dirt knocked off of someone's tires?

So, advice anyone? Kill off my herd and start over, or bow to the inevitable? I don't want to have to butcher all of my does every six months if the disease is just going to keep popping up, but I also don't want to have an infected herd if I can reasonably avoid it.

Oat Bucket Farm · #2 10/22/10, 08:51 PM

Someone once told me that because it can be transmitted by flies that all a neg CL test tells you is that your goat didn't have it at the time the blood was drawn. 10 minutes after the blood was a drawn, an infected fly could have flown onto your property and infected your goat. Whether or not this is true, I don't know.

KSALguy · #3 10/22/10, 08:57 PM

it sounds like you and just about anyone else is in bad delima, honestly its irrational to butcher every animal every 6months, i have heard its the CAE that is more trouble anyway, if the biopsy comes back that she has CL i would keep her in quarantine while the site heals and watch all the others and when they develope the absess i would quarantine and drain accordingly,
there is no vaccine that i kno of, so if you want to keep goats then thats about all you can do,

Oat Bucket Farm · #4 10/22/10, 08:59 PM

Actually, there is a CL vaccine. Most people don't want to use it because when they are tested it will show a positive titer and then people have to trust its because you vaccinated them and not because they are infected.

CaliannG · #5 10/22/10, 09:06 PM

Is there a CL vaccine, OBF? Colorado Serum Co. has two, but SPECIFIES that they are for SHEEP ONLY. I have heard lots of rumors that CSC is supposed to be developing one for goats, but I haven't found it on their site.

I don't mind taking a tested negative goat and vaccinating them. As long as I keep the vaccination paperwork, I'll feel pretty secure that the goat is negative, unless an abscess shows up.

My vet said that a vaccine isn't available yet, but she is pretty careful about any off-label use.

Oat Bucket Farm · #6 10/22/10, 09:09 PM

I could have sworn i heard they were going to get the goat one on the market this past summer. Maybe its taking longer than expected for whatever reason.

Oat Bucket Farm · #7 10/22/10, 09:21 PM

Ok, I was mixing up my facts a bit. This summer Onion Creek Ranch is participating in a clinical trial of the cl vac for goats. So I guess it will be a little bit before its available for all.

Oat Bucket Farm · #8 10/22/10, 09:29 PM

http://tennesseemeatgoats.com/articl...lymphaden.html

CaliannG · #9 10/22/10, 09:36 PM

I certainly look forward to a CL vaccine for goats.

I'll talk to my vet about off-label use of CaseBac, should I have goats that come back CL negative after this. ~sighs~

Creamers · #10 10/22/10, 10:33 PM

I have no idea what the answer is, but I am so sorry

Heritagefarm · #11 10/22/10, 10:34 PM

CL is a bacteria. I know someone who eradicated it from their heard with wholloping overdoses of antibiotics (Penicillin). At worst, you could figure out what's toxic to the bacteria and give your whole place a good dowse of something toxic.

Heritagefarm · #12 10/22/10, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSALguy

it sounds like you and just about anyone else is in bad delima, honestly its irrational to butcher every animal every 6months, i have heard its the CAE that is more trouble anyway, if the biopsy comes back that she has CL i would keep her in quarantine while the site heals and watch all the others and when they develope the absess i would quarantine and drain accordingly,
there is no vaccine that i kno of, so if you want to keep goats then thats about all you can do,

CL is way worse than CAE.

CaliannG · #13 10/22/10, 11:20 PM

Hey HF!

I have been thinking about eradicating both from body and from geographical point.

The problem of eradicating it from body is that most of the bacteria is walled off from circulatory system (that would be carrying the antibiotics such as penicillin). Antibiotics are ineffective in that case.

On the geographical place, things like bleach or kennel cleanser would, of course, kill off and sterilize the area of CL bacteria, but what do I do about my pasture and orchard? Spray 10 acres down with bleach water? And what about reinfection? The biggest problem with eradication is knowing when some deer that is infected is on my property, dropping bacteria into the soil.

And that doesn't really solve the problem with biting flies. Within the time period of the bacteria still being transmittable inside the flies' systems, a fly can go 24 miles from the point that it picked up the bacteria.

So....am I at am impasse until the vaccine comes out?

And how do people manage to keep a completely clean herd within an endemic zone?

CaliannG · #14 10/22/10, 11:23 PM

Thanks for the condolences, Creamers. I guess this is one of those lessons on how your plans can go incredibly wrong, even if you do everything *just* like you are supposed to.

where I want to · #15 10/23/10, 12:52 AM

Wait til the test comes back- it might not even be CL at all. You simply can't tell by looking at it.
But I would still isolate until I knew for sure. There is a world of difference between maybe exposing your herd to CL by an accidental deer crossing your place and having an open, draining wound being rubbed on fences, barns and other goats.
I have dealt with CL and will go pretty far down the road to prevent it again.

steff bugielski · #16 10/23/10, 06:05 AM

Not sure how the tests would come back but, My friend who started a small herd from my kids years a go ended up with CL. They did a lot of sale barn purchases of all sorts of animals.
At one point all 15 goats and some Llamas had abscesses. Since they did a traveling petting zoo It was causing problems as they did not want to bring any currently obviously infected animals to any party.
They butchered a few of the worst ones and tried to keep any infected ones by themselves. Cleaning any pus immediately after the abscess ruptured.
Well it has been about 3-4 years and no animal has had an abscess. I am certain they will test positive but with no visible signs where there had been in the past. Perhaps these animals have developed an immunity. They also have had many kids and none have shown any signs.

Heritagefarm · #17 10/23/10, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Hey HF!

I have been thinking about eradicating both from body and from geographical point.

The problem of eradicating it from body is that most of the bacteria is walled off from circulatory system (that would be carrying the antibiotics such as penicillin). Antibiotics are ineffective in that case.

On the geographical place, things like bleach or kennel cleanser would, of course, kill off and sterilize the area of CL bacteria, but what do I do about my pasture and orchard? Spray 10 acres down with bleach water? And what about reinfection? The biggest problem with eradication is knowing when some deer that is infected is on my property, dropping bacteria into the soil.

And that doesn't really solve the problem with biting flies. Within the time period of the bacteria still being transmittable inside the flies' systems, a fly can go 24 miles from the point that it picked up the bacteria.

So....am I at am impasse until the vaccine comes out?

And how do people manage to keep a completely clean herd within an endemic zone?

If the antibiotics wouldn't work, I wonder why the other person managed to eradicate it with Pen? Odd. I would hope that a strong bleach spray would do it. Afterwards, if it was me, I would probably apply a microbe tea to replace all the dead ones. As for the deer, how about electric fence around the whole perimeter? And the flys, that would be a problem. You could buy fly predators, and/or keep a good fly repellent on the animals (in this case, you might want to use one of the more effective but more toxic ones). But, there are certain spots that abscesses have to appear. I think it has to be right on a gland...

Shrarvrs88 · #18 10/23/10, 10:00 AM

what does CL do? I hope it turns out to be nothing.

HappyFarmer · #19 10/23/10, 10:42 AM

I'd segregate her until you get the test results from the exudus (sp?). If she's positive she's positive for life, though may not show abcesses at all times so never let your guard down. CLA blood tests are useless, testing material should come from the abcess.

If she's positive either run 2 seperate herds- clean kids on clean pasture using extreme biosecurity when working between pastures, and exposed adults/kids, and cull until you have replacements,

or vaccinate your entire herd & cull (as in kill) all who show symptoms.

Yes you can get rid of it, and yes it is a serious problem.

HF

fishhead · #20 10/23/10, 11:05 AM

I was talking to my vet who also raises goats about an infected dairy. She said that it could be "managed" out of the herd. I'll ask her the next time I see her but I think she was talking about having a vaccine made and then immunizing all new goats born on the farm or purchased so that over time the infected animals would be replaced.

I've heard about a vaccine that you can have made using bacteria from your farm.

If you were concerned about future buyers not trusting that the positive test was from vaccination you could always have the vet do the shots. Then you would have a legal record.