Good dog(s) for goats

[forphase1]

Here is my story. I have some nubian goats, and I also have some German Shepards. Well, the German Shepards got loose again, and I caught one of them chasing/attacking my goats. The goats are VASTLY more important and valuable to me than the dogs, so the dogs are in the process of finding good homes, and I'm in the process of looking for a new dog(s). Here is what I want.

First, I want a dog that will be good with my livestock. I'm currently raising goats, chickens and rabbits.

Second, I'd like a dog that can be a watch/guard dog, which was the original purpose of the German Shepards.

Third, I do have young kids, so it would need to be a breed that are gentle with children.

Anyone have any suggestions of what breeds I should be looking into? I love my German Shepards, but this wasn't the first time I caught them doing this, and I've done all I can think of to make them stop. And advise would be welcome.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Shepherds are NOT livestock guardian dogs. Shepherds pursue livestock, not guard it.

Do a google search on livestock guardian dogs.

[KSALguy]

Live Stock Guardian Dogs are not like normal dogs, they have been bred for 1,000's of years to stay with the livestock and protect it, they are bred to think for them self NOT to follow your direction to the letter, they are an amazing animal to have but they are NOT pets like your used to, but are still good with kids and family. simple basic training of STOP, and COME, and things like that are about the extent your going to get out of them,

Great Pyrannese, Anatolian, Merama are a few of the breeds

if your wanting a FARM dog, one that is more trainable and people oreinted but still watches over the farm then look at the English Sheperd AKA Farm Collie, not really good at watching a large area if your goats go out to pasture but will keep the home stead safe

you need to look at dog breeds that have a LOW prey drive, stay away from hunting type dogs, Herding dogs, and main streem guard dogs,

[motdaugrnds]

I have shepherds and they are GREAT livestock guard dogs!

It is all in the way they are trained. Yes, shepherds love to run and chase, hunt and catch. The shepherds we have had did all that; yet they learned "not" to hurt our goats, chickens & geese. Now I enjoy watching them actually run and play together. The dogs will place their noses up against the hing legs of the goats and the goats will turn around and play butt them; then run and jump upon the old oil drum we have laying on its side and play "king of the hill". All this occurred because of the way the shepherd (and now a lab too) were trained.

When the goats get scared and/or when the dogs bark at something outside the boundary of our homestead, the entire herd of goats run "toward" the dogs. They feel safe around them and all even sleep together. However, since our dogs know what animals belong here and what animals do not.....pity the poor animals that don't belong!!

I firmly believe it is not any particular "breed" that makes a good guard dog (for live stock and/or children); it is the way they are trained.

Edited to add: All our dogs were raised from very young puppies by us here on our farm and have always been around "all" our farm animals, taught not to hurt them when they were still puppies. (This probably makes all the difference in that none of our dogs were ever pinned up or chained. They were permitted to run freely all over our place .. as are all our animals.)

[JasoninMN]

Plenty of people keep German Shepherds with livestock and chickens just fine. Its all about training and handling, regardless of the breed chosen. All dogs. even LGDs, have prey drive to some degree and will chase prey animals unless taught not too. There is no breed that is goat safe. There is usually at least a weekly posting of a LGD not working out as expected because its killing something on this forum. Even those breeds bred to guard livestock need to be trained and supervised for a long time before they are 100% trustworthy. Dogs are simply a product of the time and training invested in them. Sorry but if you can't work with the dogs you have now, chances are you will be getting rid of the next dogs you get too. You might be better off with a llama to guard your goats.

[goatkid]

What type of dog you get depends on whether or not you want them in with the goats to guard them. If they are to be in with the goats, then you need a LGD. Otherwise, a breed such as the Austrailian Shepherd or Border Collie can be good. It's important to get herding breed as a pup or one who was raised around goats and is good around them. You can't let them in the goat pens or pasture without being with them, but they are good at guarding your property. I have a Border Collie cross who I bought from a goat breeder when she was a pup. I can have baby goats in the house in rubbermaid tubs and she doesn't mess with them. She's getting old now, but when she was younger, she would help me herd them. She's not allowed in the goat yard or pasture. She does well at letting me know if a person or wild animal is anywhere near our yard. She doesn't ever try to get in the goat pens. Our other dog is a Shih Tzu and Cocker cross. He doesn't pay any attention to the goats. He also will bark to let us know of any intruders. He's very gentle with other animals. His best friends are the cats. My friend has a couple of Aussies who are also very good with her goats.

[LoneStrChic23]

I'm one who believes its the training & socialization more than the breed.

And also sometimes even with the best of training, things can go wrong. My father in law spent a pretty penny on a pyr, that was born & raised on a goat ranch, from a long line of working stock and already mature and trained when he bought him. He ran this dog with his boers for 2 years with no problems, even saw him kill a few coyotes...then kids started turning up dead with their ears chewed off...He caught the dog in the act a few weeks after the 1st dead kid and he was chewing the ears off of it while it was still alive. He shot the dog, sold the remaining goats & now has brangus cattle...

On the flip side, my heart dog, Brutus (Great Dane who passed away 3 yrs ago to cancer) was the most perfect farm dog ever! He could be trusted with chickens, cats, goats, cattle, horses and even a hamster! When we'd go visit my mom (he literally went everywhere with me) she could tell him to "Put 'em to bed" and he would actually calmly herd the chickens, ducks and goats to their respective night time places. And Danes are surely not categorized as a "Herding" dog! He was the people dog when needed (we visited schools & nursing homes with him), guardian (he drug me out of my bed at 2am when my house caught on fire), my kids best friend, and protector of my property (took after and shockingly killed a bobcat he cornered, though I wouldn't want any dog to do that as the vet bill to repair him was insane!)

I raised him from a puppy though and put about as much work and time into him as one would a human child, and it paid off in so many ways. Miss my big guy, probably won't have another as good...My most recent Dane (foster that was unadoptable) was my previous Danes opposite. Sweet with people to a point, very unreliable, prone to aggression and would kill anything smaller than him that wasn't faster...

So IMO, I don't always think its the breed. Yes, some breeds are better suited to particular task than others, but breed alone is never a guarantee that things will go as the book says, so to speak.
And just an FYI, you can teach an old dog new tricks. My mom had a heeler a few years ago that loved to chase chickens...so she used a shock collar. I know some are appalled by them, but when used PROPERLY they can be a very effective training aide. In the case of the chicken casing heeler (and one who did actually kill 1 chicken), she would watch her, and the second she made a move to try and play with or chase the chickens, she'd get a zap. All interactions were supervised so that no "slip up" would happen without consequence. And any correction/zap was done the exact instance the error occurred to instill in her mind exactly what action caused the negative response. Once fairly reliable, my mom would "hide out" in the kitchen or somewhere that she wasn't visible to the dog, but still able to use the remote for the collar. And then she zap if the dog screwed up (so the dog learned that she still got "bit" even if mom wasn't around). Then it was tested in various situations, say tempting ones where the chickens were running and fussing about and looking like insanely fun, tempting toys, or in different areas of the property so she didn't think that only chickens in the yard were off limits. Over the course of several weeks and lots of work and time (not to mention praise for good behavior) she got the dog out of the habit, and though the dog lives with my brother now, she's still to this day considered "chicken safe".

It sounds like a lot of work, but honestly you'll have a lot of work with ANY dog or puppy. Without the work & socialization your new breed could end up with the same issues. So IMO, if you love the GSD, why not keep them. Work with them and until your 100% positive you've worked out the issue (which will honestly take time) make absolutely sure they do not have access to your stock.

Good luck to you & whatever you decide.

Best Wishes,
Crystal
http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com

[victory]

We have had many many breeds of dogs around our farm, as I use to do dog rescue. I have come to the conclusion that I will always have a collie. Currently we have a lassie dog , she was raised here, around many different animals. She knows her job and takes it very seriously, the only problems we have is when she accidentally was left in all night by the pet sitter and we lost a chicken. She does not live with the goats , but she does ward off coyotes and would be predators, she even guards the neighbors property as well.
I also trust her with children. My daughter was eight when we got her and the two are in awe of each other. W\Her first nights here, she begged to sleep outside on the porch, pretty low maintenance, not high drive like a border collie or aussie. I love the LGD's but they do take ALOT of TIME!!! Like two years, and then you only have them for what ten years at best??
Any ways, that's my two bits...=)

[Creamers]

People will tell you 100 stories about this breed and that breed being good at guarding their lifestock, but the moral is that most breeds aren't, so it is best to get a breed that has been bred just for that.

Do not risk it because someone said their Pit Bull, German Shepherd, Shar pei, Greyhound made a good guard dog for their goats once. lol.

Anything might be trained to do anything - but most of the time everything can't be trained for everything - I've learned this the hardway.

I do have breeds other than a Pyr with my goats - they aren't guards, but they have been trained to not hurt the goats. It has been A LONG process. The Pyr - she just does her job. . . some don't, but most, once out of the puppy stage, will.

A Great Pyr or Maremma is a good choice. You are FAR better off buying a LGD that is already trained, too. Do not buy a puppy or young dog and expect he/she will just do the right thing.

I've lost goats due to experimenting. . . I offer this advice based on my own and other friends' experiences.

my Pyr is amazing with kids. Most are if socialized well.

[farmmom]

Our Great Pyranees is wonderful with the animals and the children. No one can pull into the yard or walk on the property without him letting us know about it. Of course, it took some training as we got him as a puppy, but it has been worth it.

[Rockytopsis]

Originally Posted by farmmom

Our Great Pyranees is wonderful with the animals and the children. No one can pull into the yard or walk on the property without him letting us know about it. Of course, it took some training as we got him as a puppy, but it has been worth it.

I agree on the Pyrs. We have two and they are great. Got them at 4 months old and they were raised with goats and 2 legged kids and will be 1 year old on the 16th of this month and doing a fantastic job.

Nancy

[forphase1]

Thanks for the great advice. And just FYI, as some have asked, I got both of my German Shepards after they were a year old as rescue animals. They hadn't been beaten or anything like that, just neglected. So I didn't have them from pups to be able to train them properly. Anyhow, I think I'll looking to the Great Pyr a bit. Thanks again.

[thaiblue12]

Since you have kids get a puppy/young one and have it socialized with your kids. I have seen some LGD that are just tossed in with livestock and they seem semi-feral. The ones who are not taught to work with their owners and learn to mind seem to be the ones who kill more in my opinion. I do not tolerate dogs that do not listen to me. Nor do I let my boys get away with that Pyr selective hearing nonsense.

My boys when young did have issues with the chickens but they have learned not to mess with them. A good poke when they zone in a chicken and a loud NO Leave It! Worked for me. But some can be hard headed about poultry.

I would never trust a non-guardian breed to be with my livestock 24/7. Herding dogs can herd to the point of death, and let's face it dogs are hunting carnivores, even the tiny ones. My house dogs know not harm the livestock and have never looked at the crooked but they are not guardians and I would not expect them to be.

Are your Shepherds house dogs? Can you keep them away from the goats?

Also make sure your LGD does not have food aggression towards you or the kids. I think it is more common in Pyrs? But my boys know to back away from the dish when I walk towards it. They will however warn off the goats, they do let the chickens eat their food tho so now I feed them at night

[Kye022984]

We have labs and they seem to be great with our goats. They sniffed at them a couple times when we first got them but, after training, they have been wonderful. In fact, we leave them out in the yard with the goats to protect them from any stray dogs that might come after our goats.

[julieq]

We have a ten month old female GS and she's fine with the goats when we let her loose. But we watch her constantly. She does chase the barn cats if they run, but if they don't run she won't bother them. If our goats get outside their pen they will actually go up to the dog pen and visit with her. We do have an electric fence around our chicken coop and we do have an electric training collar to use if necessary on our dog. We feel it's our responsibility to train our dog and to protect our chickens and other livestock.

[LFRJ]

Farm Collie.