Copper again BUT question

[wintrrwolf]

What will happen if they bring the bolus back up and chew it? I read that you must not let them chew them but Why?
Because goats are amazing wonderful little things and always do what you don't want them too....

[pygmybabies]

There has to be a better way to do this..we filled up gelatin capsules with copasure..put in balling gun...shot to back of mouth/throat and they still didn't swallow it....we have 4 more to do here and all of wintrs. Anyone have an easier way?

[KimM]

You have to get the end of the balling gun over the back of the tongue almost into the throat.

[Alice In TX/MO]

You have to practically gag them with the gun. Like the poster above said, PAST the hump toward the back of the tongue.

I stand over the goat's shoulders, one leg on each side. Use my legs to restrain the goat. Use my left hand, fingers under the lower jaw, thumb in the toothless groove behind the front teeth, holding the mouth open and the tongue down. The right hand has the bolus gun.

You are experiencing the copper bolus frustration that we all go through at the beginning of the learning curve. We've tried all sorts of clever (we thought) alternatives, but learning to bolus is the solution.

Sorry.

[pygmybabies]

We are gonna practice again today.

[wintrrwolf]

Still need my question answered, please.
NM will call the vet. Since I am familiar with using a balling gun just not one like this. I really think it was to big for PB little goats.

[Natural Beauty Farm]

What size gun are you using? For Pygmy it should be a pet/dog bolus that one capsule fits in.

They won't cough it up with cud, the capsule dissolves and the rods implant themself into the rumen walls.

When mine cough I know its in far enough.

[Natural Beauty Farm]

Double posted.......................................

[wintrrwolf]

ok gotcha I was figuring PB needed a smaller one. But some still chewed on the capsules before swallowing so wanted to know Why they cant chew them? Her goats arent going to die are they? I think the point of using the "gun" is to get is as close to the rumen as possible before the capsule dissolves right? But if they chewed it with the back molar there is noooo way to stick your finger in there to stop them. So was concerned.
My goats inhale marshmallows and I stuck the capsules to that, treated 5 of them in under 5 minutes...followed up with a little sweet feed. Done
What I noticed with a little experiment is that the rods dont stick to anything by themselves which is why they sink to the bottom and folds of the rumen. So if chewing by accident isn't going to kill them then the delivery system only matters to insure that each goat is getting the proper dosage right? Because once in the rumen the rods fall to the bottom anyway....

[Alice In TX/MO]

Those who are rabid about it will tell you that chewing will damage the rods or change their size or that they have a specific gravity that would somehow be effected by goat teeth. My view on that is "poppycock." (respectfully)

The little pieces of copper are all different sizes anyway.

Have you tried chewing them? EEWW! Worse than sand. Hard, too.

At least one goat chews and spits the bolus out every time. I just put it back in the gun and re-administer it.

My goats really like peanut butter crackers, and if you shove one of those in the front of their mouth after you bolus, they are less likely to spit out the bolus.

There are pics online of X-Rays done after using marshmallows, but (again) those who are rabid will poo-poo them and say they don't show long term results, etc. etc.

Do what you can do now, and work on learning to bolus.

[pygmybabies]

I hope you didnt kill my goats.....they seem fine this morning.
btw, we bought the smallest one they had at tractor supply for $1.49. I am gonna try the marshmallow trick with the rest later today, as I will want to take a shower as soon as I am done giving to the boys!

[fishhead]

I don't see how they could possibly chew enough of them to make a difference since they only chew for a couple of seconds.

[Alice In TX/MO]

I agree.:baby04:

[pygmybabies]

alice, pictures of xrays after using marshmallows, why what is the reason, is there a problem doing it that way? Do you have the link? ( you always do...lol)

[Alice In TX/MO]

The people who did the experiment were documenting simply out of curiosity and frustration with bolusing. Their veterinarian helped, obviously.

http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html

Edited to add:

Just to keep the flames from starting ---> I bolus now. It took a long time for me to learn to do it and to be comfortable with it.

The above website is for information. If you want to attack their method or results, please keep it polite and don't attack ME for sharing the results of a Google search and furthering the conversation.

[pygmybabies]

thanks alice I appreciate all the advice and at least I know how to handle opinions, and i do want to learn all these things that is why I ask. I appreciate that you and others take your time to get on here and help us newbies out. I have learned so much from you and others, and made some great friends as well.
Thanks

[pygmybabies]

I looked at it, that is awesome, I might still try that, I have the rest of the day to decide and since hubby is helping, maybe let him decide.

[CaliannG]

I used to use a bolus. Now, I use peanut-butter wrapped in a little bit of bread.

~shrugs~ I have not seen any difference between using a bolus and wrapping it inside a treat. I'll let you know if I see any differences next year.

The "specific gravity" argument does not hold water. Copper oxide has a specific gravity no matter how small the particles, and anyway, the copper found inside a bolus ranges from recognizable, long rods to the finest of dust.

The "chewing the copper could harm their teeth" argument does not hold water. The copper oxide is about the consistency of sand, and taste worse, yes....but so does the loose mineral I feed them and they chew THAT all the time.

The reason I switched from using the regular bolus gun with the capsules was finding too many of them that had been coughed up and spit out, only partially digested. Doesn't do me much good if I find the thing a week later, then I don't know which doe coughed it up, and I can't just go systematically re-doing every goat to make sure the one or two that managed to NOT take their medicine get their doses.

So, I figure that by feeding it to them wrapped in some treat, at least I can be decently sure that a good amount of it actually gets to their stomach.

~shrugs~ Just my take on it. Your mileage may, of course, vary. I am sure there are stories of goats that have died horrible deaths from chewing copper rods, and others, with herds numbering in the thousands, that have never once had a goat cough up a bolus and spit it out.

[Laverne]

You know how those gelatin capsules will stick to your fingers if they get damp? I read that a capsule got stuck in the throat of a goat and it suffocated. So I glom on lubricating jelly so it will slip and slide down the throat. But I have to do it fast cause the capsule starts dissolving so quick.

[nehimama]

I wonder. . . . if they practically INHALE the marshmallow, couldn't you stick the BOLUS inside the marshmallow, and watch 'til they swallow it? Or do they chew on the marshmallow? I don't know. Never gave mine marshmallows. . .. ..