How to know when to Breed or Cull?

goto10 · #1 06/14/10, 01:51 PM

I'd like ot hear how some of you determine when to continue to breed or to cull any of your herd. I just had a doe kid, my second doe ever to kid. Her fate in my herd has hung in the balance since I got her. I got her already bred and the reason was I wanted milk and it seemed like my other doe was never getting bred, she has since kidded.

Anyway this other doe is wild but otherwise she was a very good nigerian doe from milking lines. She kidded very easily with one buckling just a couple days ago. Which is a plus on my list since my other doe needed a c-section but now i think that is due to me overfeeding her while she was pregnant. I changed my feeding amounts for this doe.

She has a congested udder which is now something I had to deal with. The bottom of her teats seem to turn towards her back legs so when I milk its shoots back even if the whole teat is facing forward. So I am thinking I may not breed her again and maybe sell her.

Now what would one do with buck out of her? How much does the mom play into this? If he produced a doe that would be twice removed from his mom so less likely to carry her flaws. Flaws of which I am not totally sure of as things could change with the teats as the kid nurses. But I don't know if this udder issue would happen everytime she lactates either.

And if I didn't want her, how would I sell him or 'label' her for sale. Just a pet? Or maybe a doe to get some kids out of but not base a herd on? I would be upfront about the udder issues to any buyer.

**mygoat** · #2 06/14/10, 02:16 PM

I'd let her dam raise the buckling, then butcher them. Teat placement and orifices is heritable. Alternately, if he's 'flashy' you could bottle raise him, make him a wether, and sell him as a pet... But I would not offer him as a buckling. From your description of the doe, you're not likely to get much more out of her than what her meat is worth, so I'd put her in the freezer. It is pretty tough to find good pet homes for goats, that in most cases butchering is more humane, IMO.

As for the doe, milking does not sound fun! With nigerians you have to be VERY picky about udders/teats because too many people breed them because they're cute and don't give a single thought to the udder quality or conformation.

goto10 · #3 06/14/10, 03:02 PM

I don't think I can put a $350 dollar goat in the freezer.

chamoisee · #4 06/14/10, 03:05 PM

The congested udder may not be her fault at all, and certainly not hereditary in any case. If colostrum is left in the udder after the doe kids, the udder will usually get congested and hard. This is why I tell people who are dam raising that even if they do not want to use the milk, and even though they may not want to save or use the colostrum, you *must* milk out the udder once the kid(s) have had all that they need, within 8 hours of kidding or less, and the doe should be milked out daily until the kids are using all the milk. Even then, there should be daily udder checks for mastitis, cut or bitten teats, etc.

I would definitely not cull her for the congested udder.

The backward facing teats sound like a pain, however, the Nigerian Dwarf has only recently seen a breeding focus on milk production. Realistically, you cannot expect perfection in a ND doe without paying buku bucks. So, I would breed her to a better buck.

Wildness- again, not her fault. This is probably a result of the way she was raised and handled (or more likely, not handled) as a kid and young doe. It can be overcome with consistent patience, kindness, and attention to potential stressors in her environment...such as dogs or small children in the milking area for example.

However, I wouldn't keep her buck kid for breeding. Only the very best of the best bucks should be kept for breeding. Even with top breeders with the top lines, only 1/3 (or less) of the bucks are truly stud-worthy. For the rest of us, the sad fact is that even if we use the best lines, only 1 in ten (or less) of the bucks are really worthy of being used as bucks.

I fully realize that there are breeders who sell each and every buckling born on their farms as bucks, and at very high prices, too....but that doesn't make it right.

wintrrwolf · #5 06/14/10, 03:10 PM

I have noticed after Sugar freshened her udder and teets have gone through some changes the further along we went. Now once I pull the twins off of her will be the real test, but even then she has been giving me a good quanity of milk. Hand milking is a good determination of teets and udders I think, using hand pump or pump gives the doe more leniency. If her teets are truely troubled then of course using her to breed or her buckling is not advisable.

goto10 · #6 06/14/10, 03:31 PM

Well her kid was much smaller than hte last kid with my other doe so she ended up lop-sided and I milked her out the same day he was born and found she had a congested udder.

My other nigerian doe has already gone through a few udder changes, for the better since she kidded. Her teats are much longer and easier to milk now from just 6 weeks ago.

I guess I will see what happens but I am still unsure how to tell if a buck is worth keeping as a buck. When breeding for milk I can only imagine one would go by the dam so that the buck also carries good milk genes. I'm not really that knowledgeable when it comes to conformation. I can tell if a goat is totally out of whack but some of the nuances are still invisible to my eye and imho not worth breeding for if I can't even tell what I am breeding for.

chamoisee · #7 06/14/10, 03:35 PM

Have you had her tested for CAE? That will also cause a congested udder, as will mastitis. If she is CAE +, then yes I would cull her, and test the other goats too.

saanengirl · #8 06/14/10, 03:40 PM

A buck is worth keeping if, and only if, you want every doe in the herd to look like his mother and if he is generally structurally correct.

The exception to this rule is if his mother has something in particular that you are trying to get in the rest of your herd, and her faults are not the faults of the rest of the herd.

saanengirl · #9 06/14/10, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helianthus

Have you had her tested for CAE? That will also cause a congested udder, as will mastitis. If she is CAE +, then yes I would cull her, and test the other goats too.

Actually, mycoplasma is more likely to cause a congested udder than CAE. CAE testing is important, but many congested udders that are blamed on CAE are more likely due to a mycoplasma infection. Mycoplasma is prevented the same way CAE is prevented, so those following CAE prevention measures are likely to have fewer congested udders.

goto10 · #10 06/14/10, 07:24 PM

From what I have read the causes of congested udder range from nothing to something and everything in between.

All of the goats in my herd come from CAE free herds although they have not been tested because it's hard to find a vet around here and I can't hold them to bleed them myself.

The CAE thing is whole different can of worms because everyone wants to test but then they say tests aren't 100% accurate and you can still get CAE+ animals from CAE- herds and you won't know until you had an iffy test done.

But I tried to milk my goat today and I honestly can't tell if she is stripped by the kid or just not producing. Her udder is still quite lumpy, each side feels like a huge slice of orange if that makes any sense. If this can;t be corrected with massaging and that sort of thing then she will definitely not be bred again.

As for the kid, he comes from polled genetics so I do have a desire to put a bit of that in my herd before moving him on but I still have to wait til he gets a bit larger to see how he is really going to fill out and ifhe should stay a buck.

deineria · #11 06/14/10, 08:08 PM

It is the CL testing that isn't very accurate, not he CAE testing.

Might she have mastitis?

The udder does sound like a bit of a mess, so if you're breeding for milking, I'd probably not breed her again. .. but then again, if you breed her to a solid buck with a line of great udders behind him, maybe if would come out okay.

With an udder like that, $350 sounds quite high, but I know that in some places, miniature breeds bring higher prices regardless of udder quality if there aren't a lot of breeders around.

goto10 · #12 06/14/10, 09:26 PM

$350 is about what I paid for any of my nigerian does around here. That seems to be the low end. She's a first freshener and had no udder when I bought her although she had been bred and was about 2 months preg at the time.

I have read in other forums that people say CAE, as well as CL, is hard to get an accurate test for as there are different tests for CAE that may not be as accurate. I wouldn't bother testing for CL since I vaccinate for it and would prob test positive on all my animals or so I read.

This doe I have now actually came from one breeder who bought it from another breeder who was selling out their entire herd. I bought her because she has great milking genetics but apparently something went wrong OR they were so great that she got congested right off the bat.

I didn't mention before, but I did feel her udder as it was developing and I noticed it was a bit firmer 2 weeks ago than it had been a month or two before but I figured she just had a firmer udder than my other doe. I would've never thought to milk her out before she kidded to alleviate the congestion. In fact I knew nothing about congested udders until yesterday afternoon. This is only my second kidding so I still have a bit to learn.

deineria · #13 06/14/10, 11:21 PM

Testing through Biotracking for CAE is a dependable result, for sure.

Yes, if you vaccinate for CL, then you should test positive.

Oh, my. . . the goat learning curve is SO through the roof - you will always have things to learn. . .

saanengirl · #14 06/15/10, 01:26 PM

The ELISA test for CAE (available through WSU and Biotracking) is the most reliable CAE test available. I trust the results of the CAE ELISA.

jordan · #15 06/15/10, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goto10

But I tried to milk my goat today and I honestly can't tell if she is stripped by the kid or just not producing. Her udder is still quite lumpy, each side feels like a huge slice of orange if that makes any sense. If this can;t be corrected with massaging and that sort of thing then she will definitely not be bred again.

As for the kid, he comes from polled genetics so I do have a desire to put a bit of that in my herd before moving him on but I still have to wait til he gets a bit larger to see how he is really going to fill out and ifhe should stay a buck.

You have to give a FF doe a little time and milking before determining if the congestion or meatiness is a fact of life or a result of just recently kidding with a single kid. I've had FF's who have started out with meaty udders, but with milking and massage has worked itself out. The orifice pointing backward won't change though and is not desirable.

Unless the buck himself is polled, he won't throw polled. And as for keeping and/or using a buck just because he is polled, from a dam with a less than great udder (especially when you admit you are not experienced enough to determine structural quality), IMO is just shameful and a discredit to you and a shame for any unsuspecting person who will buy him or one of his kids and then pass on more poor genetics! Until you gain experience and knowledge by being mentored, attending shows and having appraisals done, you could do yourself and others a great service and wether any buckling you have born there until you do gain the experience, wisdom and honesty to judge what is good and what isn't.

A buck is 50% of your herd and can do alot of damage or good to your herd in very little time.

As an ND breeder myself, I'm not sorry if this sounds harsh to you if it will make you re-think your plans. There are WAY too many lousy animals out there that were bred for color, blue eyes or polled with little to no thought to the fact that this is a miniature DAIRY breed and should be bred for dairy character and milk not color!
Lois

shiandpete.1 · #16 06/15/10, 04:45 PM

We personally never keep a buck out of a first freshener and we don't sell them either. We want to see how well the FF udder matures after she has freshened more than once, how long her lactation lasts, how easy she is to milk etc. With the incorrect orifices and the possible meaty udder on your doe I wouldn't leave him a buck. With her I would find a buck that can help correct her problems and hope she had a doeling, then I would cull her and start over with her doe kid and keep breeding up until you get the most desireable traits.

chamoisee · #17 06/15/10, 11:48 PM

I agree with Jordan.

As for bucklings out of first fresheners....I agree to some extent. HOwever, I would much rather buy a buckling from a first freshener than to buy a buckling from an older doe and an unproven buck! The first freshener at least has an udder (albeit immature and usually small) , whereas a baby buck has no proof whatsoever except the body he himself possesses...which is also immature. I see a lot of herds, including big, prestigious herds, selling bucks out of unproven sires but not from first fresheners. It is my pet peeve!

goto10 · #18 06/16/10, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jordan

You have to give a FF doe a little time and milking before determining if the congestion or meatiness is a fact of life or a result of just recently kidding with a single kid. I've had FF's who have started out with meaty udders, but with milking and massage has worked itself out. The orifice pointing backward won't change though and is not desirable.

Unless the buck himself is polled, he won't throw polled. And as for keeping and/or using a buck just because he is polled, from a dam with a less than great udder (especially when you admit you are not experienced enough to determine structural quality), IMO is just shameful and a discredit to you and a shame for any unsuspecting person who will buy him or one of his kids and then pass on more poor genetics! Until you gain experience and knowledge by being mentored, attending shows and having appraisals done, you could do yourself and others a great service and wether any buckling you have born there until you do gain the experience, wisdom and honesty to judge what is good and what isn't.

A buck is 50% of your herd and can do alot of damage or good to your herd in very little time.

As an ND breeder myself, I'm not sorry if this sounds harsh to you if it will make you re-think your plans. There are WAY too many lousy animals out there that were bred for color, blue eyes or polled with little to no thought to the fact that this is a miniature DAIRY breed and should be bred for dairy character and milk not color!
Lois

jordan, you're preaching to the choir when it comes to NDs being a dairy animal. I needed milk in a small space. That's why I got them. I did my research and I know people are crazy about showing but rarely milk. So I looked at the animals getting all the milking awards and tried to find those names locally, to add to my herd. My first FF is an excellent milker imho. As an FF she milks easily with long teats and puts out at least a quart a day now that the kid is off her. She comes from a breeder that actually milks her goats and also uses the milk. I know some FF NDs produce more than that, but I am very happy with her.

My other two come from very dairy lines however this particular FF that I am talking about, seems to be a dud and likely won't stick around. I have no regrets in going for dairy lines and getting a dud because very few people milk their NDs for personal use so there are not a lot of options for me but to buy all my goats from one breeder and there goes all the diversity I have in my herd right now. I do have two other bucks of great quality and background so I wouldn't have a problem getting polled into my herd from this one buck and then never using him again. However, he is not polled so there goes that idea.

Another thing, it's not bad to select for coat color, eye color or polled genetics. One can select for those as well as dairy characteristics if they have a mature animal. Certain breeders like to immediately jump on anyone breeding for such things as being all style and no substance. It's easy to criticize because it very visible which is why it's also easy to breed for. On the other hand it's quite difficult to choose a buckling by the does he will produce since they don't exist but people still do it. I'm just saying.

When you find a way to get the majority of ND breeders to favor milk capacity over conformation and color, let me know.

saanengirl · #19 06/16/10, 03:51 PM

I do not mind using or buying bucks out of first fresheners or unproven bucks as long as I like the animals in the pedigree. I view bucks out of young does and young bucks as the cutting edge of breeding, and while there is some risk involved in using these animals, they are likely to be the best bucks a (good) breeder has. Out of seven outside bucks I have acquired over the years, 4 have been the sons of first fresheners. Of these, half were the sons of both unproven sires and first fresheners. The two worst bucks of the seven were out of proven does by proven sires. None of their sons or daughters remain in either my herd or my parents' herd today. On the other hand, there are descendents of all but one of our foundation sire's daughters still in our herds (he was the son of a first freshener by a proven buck), and the son of another buck (who happened to be out of a first freshener by an unproven buck) is turning out to be the best buck we ever bred, and has sired outstanding daughters, while the other buck out of a first freshener by an unproven buck is throwing some of the nicest kids in the herd. The fourth buck has a gorgeous first freshening daugher in my parents' herd.