CAE questions

[deineria]

I am curious, for those that do not show, that bought from CAE tested stock, CAE tests their own herd. . .and still do heat treated colostrum and milk. . .
Why do you feel the need to do so?
We have not opted not to do the above since we currently do not show,
have bought from CAE tested free herds and are CAE neg here. . .
BUT IF I heard a case for doing it that was convincing, I would. . .
I just haven't read anything that made sense for me to take that kind of
precaution.

Insight?

[susanne]

there is so much more why we bottle feed pasteurizes milk.
of course cae is on top of the list but there is mastitis that could be transmitted to kids. or mycoplasma, just to name two.

[Pony]

Are mycoplasma and mastitis so prevalent that the kids should be pulled?

[Heritagefarm]

CAE we don't actually pasteurize for. If the doe is CAE negative, why pasteurize and kill perfectly good milk!?
Are mycoplasma and mastitis so prevalent that the kids should be pulled?
I've never even heard of mycoplasma, and I haven't heard of pasteurizing to kill mastitis, either.

[susanne]

maybe you want to do search for staph aureous?
you will find a lot of info about this form of mastitis in cows but it applys to goats too.
search for mycoplasma too. it is knowledge that helps prevent diseases

i would not buy a dam raised kid.

[Heritagefarm]

I won't buy a kid who's been fed powdered colostrum supplement and pasteurized milk, to me that produces a kid of inferior quality.
"i would not buy a dam raised kid"
Depends if the dam had CAE or not.

[4piecesof8]

We are just s small hobby farm. We homestead not for profit or small business, we raise chickens for the meat and eggs for our family. We raise dairy goats for meat and milk for the family.

We bought from disease free herds and flocks and our numbers are small, but we did that so our animals could do what animals do and we people do what we do. Raise them, love them, and use them for the intended purpose.

As I read more and more about how awful pasturized milk is for humans, I wonder why it is so much better for little goat kids. We and the kids use the milk raw. We also have our own buck, he too was bought from a disease free herd.

We are putting our buck kid in the freezer, and the twin does will be bred this fall by the Nubian Buck kid I am buying to replace our Saanen buck. Hamish, our buck we use now is being castrated after he breeds our Nubian & Saanen does again this fall. He is being trained to pack and cart and he even has learned a few simple tricks to entertain us.

Our plan after everyone freshens spring of 2011, is to use all bucks and does born for meat purposes, until the day arrives when one or two does will be kept from the breedings to replace the then Older does we started with.

We understand that Life is what gets in the way of plans, but after reading so many posts about taking kids away from the does and bottle feeding them. I have to ask myself what did we not consider?

Right now we have plenty of milk and eggs to support our family of four and the once in a while House Guest. I fear I am missing something of vital importance here, or what we are doing for our family is not what the majority posting in the Goat Forum here are doing.

Any thoughts, comments or screams of outrage are welome,

Thanks for all the information on this forum, it's a great place to learn!

[mygoat]

Besides disease prevention, I like pulling kids so I can know how much milk each doe is producing. I like accurate records. I also like to know who to keep and who to cull. The whole point of breeding is to improve future generations - therefore, I only want does that produce a lot of milk for a long time, and do so without breaking down.

I also like the fact that I can sell kids immediately - I don't have to keep any kids around that I don't want for any longer than I have to. Which means, I get all the milk for my own use - and can give my keeper doelings more milk to get them to size fast enough.

As for taming kids, I don't have the time to tame skittish dam raised kids. There is nothing more annoying to me than animals I can't handle or catch. Which is why I only dam raise miniature goat bucklings (and will likely dam raise my boers in the future) because they're for meat and I don't do ANYTHING with them that requires them being caught until I feel like butchering them. However, dairy kids that I sell to other people or those that I keep myself I don't want to have to fight with day in and out, especially not in the milkstand.

[christie]

Why would mastitis hurt the kids??? When I have mastitis I still nurse my baby. I think those that pasterize for the kids obviously don't drink raw milk and couldn't understand that mama milk is best. The same way as some feed there children formula. You wouldn't past. breast milk. Raw is ment for the kids.
People who bottle feed to make sure they're kids are gettin enough. may also bottle feed there children with the concept that they don'tmake enough for their own babies. Its supply and demand. The system works if left alone.
Of course there is always the triplet that need a bottle or would be left to starve but in every other circumstance. Mama can feed them.
This is for CAE neg does of course.

[shiandpete.1]

Originally Posted by christie

I think those that pasterize for the kids obviously don't drink raw milk and couldn't understand that mama milk is best.

This statement is obviously pretty ignorant. Sorry to sound annoyed. We drink the milk, raw, as do all of our herd share holders and we feed heat treated colostrum, pastureized and or vitamin D milk from the store. So that statement above is completely unfounded. We feed the way we do for the following reasons; we show, we test for CAE and are negative have the paperwork to prove it but feeding the kids on a disease prevention program allows us to guarantee that our kids are free of any said diseases. I can sell kids right away, which I couldn't if they were dam raised. There is so much more to animal husbandry and raising friendly healthy kids. And just so that you know I breast fed both my children, until they were well over a year, I know the benefits of moms milk. My nephew who was a premie had a g tube and no suck reflex drank breast milk until my niece had some health issues and couldn't anymore, then he was switched to a raw goats milk formula.

Also certain forms of mastitis can be transfered to a kid that is nursing on a dam with mastitis.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

If you actually tests your goat than yes mama raising goats is fine. But few test, they go by heresay from breeders who sell them a bill of goods. They never see the results for themselves or test when they get the goats home.

Yes if all you do is have house milk goats and you butcher all your kids, testing or using prevention is moot.

But when you sell kids, your a breeder and it is your responsiblity once you learn about CAE, CL and other milkborne disease that goes from dam to kid, to not pass it on to other new people. It is why, this unethical practice, that 25 years after our first CAE Tests became available there is as much or more CAE in new herds than before. Nearly every person who moves from this forum to ours, who starts testing has positive stock, long after they have already sold kids to new unsuspecting folks who do not know what questions to ask ,and buy goats for the cuteness factor first. It's a fact of life, if you haven't tested and you are new, most of your goats, sometimes all of your goats, will be positive on your first test and you will have ruined the kid crops you do have by letting them nurse.

Also what you do at your farm is up to you, for me it's marketing, to get what I get for my goats and to protect my reputation I would never allow goatlings to nurse or to not test my goats.

I drink raw milk, but I also drink it from tested negative does, for CAE, for CL, for staph mastitis, and yes mastitis milk drank by goatling doelings can give them mastitis that they freshen with as first fresheners. You can also spread mastitis from doe to doe with kids nursing others dams after nursing their dam that has mastitis. And don't think this doesn't happen, my first buckling born this year was during the time I was doing hospice with my MIL...he not only nursed his dam but nursed two of my other does when they kidded about 4 weeks later, thankfully since I don't have staph mastitis it wasn't spread from doe to doe, and with my does tested he didn't get CAE from other does or his dam. He was Easter supper anyway so that point is moot.

I don't make dam raised kids because mine have always turned out wild, tame for me and the routine here, but wild heathens in their new homes. My children are grown and although the grandboys are around a lot, not around enough to keep the babies tame.

I don't sell dam raised kids, because I am too vocal on the internet, it would take some people great pleasure in saying I sold someone diseased stock, with the amounts of goats I sell. Most don't like to be told the real facts, and I am not good at sugar coating the facts.

So raise goats that you can market and sell, if your sales are brisk and you are sold out like I am, than continue doing what you are doing...if not, than change so the market will buy your stock. Profit is not a dirty word and buy selling heat treated and pasteurized kids out of tested stock, especially if that stock is registered is an excellent little income for a SAHM. Selling kids for less than what the dam and sire cost you per year, unless you have just one doe supplying all your housemilk needs, isn't in the spirit of homesteading. Vicki

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I won't buy a kid who's been fed powdered colostrum supplement and pasteurized milk, to me that produces a kid of inferior quality.
.......................

All my goats on my website were raised on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk, in fact most were raised on grocery store milk since I sell goat milk. Nearly all the milkers kidded at 11 to 15 months their first time and are milked for 10 months out of the year every year. lonesomedoenubians.com I would say your hypothesis is incorrect on the pasteurized milk, I couldn't agree more on the colostrum replacer, first of all there really is no such thing only colostrum supplement Vicki

[deineria]

Okay, thanks for the opinions.

I have seen neg. test results from our goats we've purchased, and I have tested our herd; All were Negative. All but one came from breeders who only do heat treated colostrum and milk, also.
I am glad to understand that CAE should NOT be something we will encounter if the above is true. . .
Our kids that we had to start bottle-feeding were 4 weeks and quite tame because the dam is so tame, but I am not sure I wouldn't opt to bottle-feed some for the in your pocket results, anyway.
I understand the idea that since with nursing 'human' babies we are taught to NEVER heat breastmilk because the antibodies and nutrition (most all are destroyed in human breastmilk with heating), to some large extent, have to be destroyed . . .that it, in theory,
could produce kids stunted in some way - but of course, as with formula fed infants (though I would never do this), there are many healthy and smart children out there having been fed on it - - - so many things can work.
My main reason for asking was to be sure that if you buy actual tested stock, test your
own herd, and you do not show. . .should you be concerned about CAE only in your kids if you do dam raise.

[christie]

Sorry for my ignorance on goats. All I have to go on is comparing it to a lactating human. Where I 'm a lactation councler. From my undersyanding of mastitiss is that is an infection in the mammary system. Bacteria Enters from an cut ,abbrassion, orffice what have you and causes the 'mom' to have an infection.The mom can't give an infection to her baby.. your even saying it willifect the babies mamary system? I have a hard time believing that. I know woman that breast feed through all sorts of infections and deseases, and I don't see how goats would be different. I'll have to look that up.

But the point of the post isn't what s more sellable dam raised vs. bottle fed. Rather if you have a cae free herd isn't it safe to dam raise??
Not contending w/ all the various calamities that the kids can get, but cae alone.
Can't I sell my goats honestly cae neg too though I dam raise? {don't show}
I was wondering the same thing myself thats all.

[ozark_jewels]

My management is right on my website.

I have CAE tested my herd for years.

The results are posted on my website since I put my website up.

I feed colostrum from my older repeatedly CAE negative does(the whole herd is negative), then the kids are put on raw cows milk from our healthy Jersey cows. I've raised them this way for years. From the kids raised this way, I've never had one freshen as yearlings with mastitis, never had one test positive for CAE, etc. I'm very happy with the results.

I'm very aware that because of the management I choose to use, some people will never buy from my herd. Thats just fine by me, there are a lot of herds I feel the same way about.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who chooses to heat-treat and pasturize. I have no problem buying stock raised that way.

I sell out every year with no problems, have many repeat customers, etc. This of course came with time, it was not from the start!

If I ever have a reason to rethink my management I surely will, but I have not.

I stress to my buyers that they should of course test their own stock and not just assume that they are negative because someone said or they saw a test that said.

Way back when I bought my first goats, I bought from people who fed raw milk and people who pasturized. When I first tested my herd then, half the does were positive. Most of the positive does came from people who practiced CAE prevention by "pulling kids at birth, heat-treating and pasturizing". But they never tested, and obviously their managment had several holes in it. Taught me a thing or two.

I do not see a positive CAE test as a death sentence. But it is something I would *never* want to perpetuate.

On another note. As a dairy(and as a relief milker at many other dairies for these past ten years), we have always fed milk from mastitic cows to the replacement heifers. Never have had one freshen with mastitis.

[christie]

I have had mine tested and our neg. should you test on a regular basis?

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by christie

I have had mine tested and our neg. should you test on a regular basis?

Yes, at least once a year. They reccomend twice a year tests for the first couple years. If you pull your own blood and send it in(I use WSU ELISA), its not expensive.

[4piecesof8]

I'd like to say again a huge thank you to all of you here. Many questions were answered for me. If I were in the business of goats, I'd surely be following some of these practices.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

We have done this thread many many times and the following question is all too enlightening. But when asked, the very same breeders who say they dam raise...won't buy dam raised kids from others So if the breeders are only buying CAE prevention kids, I think that is really telling. I could name on one hand who I would buy a dam raised kid from, and only because I have a personal relationship with the herd to know the status of the herd. Vicki

[susanne]

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

On another note. As a dairy(and as a relief milker at many other dairies for these past ten years), we have always fed milk from mastitic cows to the replacement heifers. Never have had one freshen with mastitis.

emily that is very interesting and opposite to what is going around.
on the other hand this would confirm what a vet told in a seminar. mastitis is spread because a calf that was allowed to nurse on an infected cow, has then the bacteria in the mouth cavity and if sucking other, healthy cows (and they will do that) spreading the mastitis causing bacteria. calfs will also suck on other calfs and why then heifer freshen with same mastitis as adult cows have.