two questions about 5 day old kids, one urgent

[Ted and Becca]

Two important questions about four day old kids
New Mom: Fiona, Nubian, will not allow kids to nurse, we are milking her.
Mom: Fiona, Nubian, healthy, won't let the kids nurse
Kids: five days old, active, good appetite, bottle feeding mom's milk
Other adult female: Velvet, half Nubian half Alpine. About a year old. Very very active, playful.

1. The younger kid, a female, has a bubbly sound in her chest. Kindof like bronchitis in humans, only without the cough. Sign of trouble? Recommendations? What are the recommended antibiotics for 5 day old kids, if any, if indicated. I have some penicillin here already, but could go to the co-op and pick up something else, although their selection is limited.

2. How long should we keep Fiona and the two kids separate from the other female we have. The other female we have is very active and assertive/aggressive, and I do have some concerns about the safety of the kids with her rough play, but only trying it would tell. The mother doe is Nubian and the other doe is half Nubian and half Alpine. She is also pregnant.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much,

Worried Grandma (Becca)

[madness]

Hmm, not sure with the doeling being 5 days old. If earlier, I would have thought maybe still amniotic fluid in the lungs. But I do know that kids can get pneumonia. I have no experience there so hopefully someone else has an idea.

We only keep the doe and the newborns separate for a day or two unless there's a reason not to (weak kid, mom not recovering as fast as she should, etc.). The other adults don't seem to take much interest at all in the babies. I think it's safe to let them mingle.

[LomahAcres]

She could have just gotten fluid in her lungs when she was born. You can give her banamine for 3 days and see if that clears it up.

Ideally, I like to leave doe and new kids separate from the group for about 1-2 weeks. They will be plenty bouncy by then to be able to avoid the other doe, unless she is just plane mean out to get them. Watch them for a while when you first put them together.

[Ted and Becca]

Great, thanks for replying. Will see if Co-op or TSC has banamine tomorrow morning. I noticed this afternoon that the bubbling seems to be getting better.

Thanks so much,

Becca

[madness]

Hmm, I hadn't heard of banamine for fluid in the lungs. That stuff is good for everything...

But banamine can only be gotten through your vet. Do you have a good relationship with a vet? If not, they more than likely won't give you a prescription without seeing the little critter. It took me a while to convince our vet that we can handle having meds like that on hand. So if you don't have an established relationship, go ahead and take the doeling in and show that you will know how to handle the medication!

[Backfourty,MI.]

I wouldn't give Banamine for bubbling in the chest. Normally it is for pain & inflamation, maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't anyways. It is also RX only.
If she is sounding better it could be fluid in there from birth but could it also be from Bottle feeding? Is she a real aggressive sucker? Piggy like? I'm wondering if she got some milk in there while drinking?

I keep my doe & kids seperated for 2-3 days, depending on the doe & kids but if everyone is feeling good, eating, drinking, etc. 2-3 days is average for us here. My doe's like it better with there herd mates & really don't like being seperated even if they have there new kids. They like being all together.
Kids learn really fast which goat to avoid & how to run fast.

[Ted and Becca]

Yes, she is an extremely aggressive bottle feeder.

So if it is amniotic fluid, will that slowly clear up? It does seem to be getting better.

If it's milk, that would be bad, wouldn't it?

[Backfourty,MI.]

I always dam raise my kids & yours are probly bottle feeding right? I am figuring if milk or amniotic fluid that it will clear up on it's own but I have never had that problem before. I do remember reading posts about aggressive drinkers(bottle fed babies) & getting milk in there lungs but can't remember if they did anything about it or not.

Have you also taken her temp. to rule out an infection or pneumonia? I would think if it was either of those she would be running a high fever. Sounds like other than the bubbling botherng you she is feeling & acting alright otherwise?

Let's see what some of the others say today too, I'll be curious also. Sorry I'm not much help.

[Ted and Becca]

no fever, normal behavior, great appetite, good energy level, getting stronger and heavier every day. starting to show some interest in the bermuda grass in the manger. i think i'll just wait it out and see what happens. the bubbling is definitely getting better. in fact, much better. also, i've been getting less milk from momma when i milk her, so i suspect that the kids are nursing. and that would be a really good thing.

[Ted and Becca]

Actually saw the kids nursing! Yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bearfootfarm]

I'd confine them to a 4 X 4 pen and MAKE her bond to them.

The more you bottle feed them, the less likely she will ever accept them

[motdaugrnds]

I always make sure the dam and her kids bond together, especially if I am bottle feeding them. I have a small 6'x6' pen inside barn with only wire on one side so the dam can still see her adult friends. This is useful for bonding time of about a week. If I am bottle feeding the kids, I milk their dam into the bottle and that is what I feed the babies. Usually takes a very short period of time before I can turn them out with the rest of the herd.

[Natural Beauty Farm]

Is the bubbling coming from the lungs or belly. It is possible to put milk in a stomach that should not be open if the bottle is held too low when feeding.

If the sound is in the lungs I would start a course of antibiotics and let it go for 10 days, lung problems are a bugger.

If they are nursing and the doe is defending them then they will probably be ok around the herd. If you are bottle feeding them, they need to be away from the herd until they can defend themselves, the doe will not have any interest in making them safe and might be the one who hurts them if they try to nurse.

[Ted and Becca]

I'm happy to report that the bubbling is gone. Don't have the first clue what it actually was, maybe to aggressive nursing, but it seems to have resolved itself.

I have confined the momma and kids to a very small area for bonding. They are doijng a good job of that, and as of this morning both kids had figured out the nursing thing and momma has been letting them nurse. This morning neither kid expressed any interest in the bottle, and their little tummies looked and felt good and full.

All's well, and I appreciate your great advice and knowledge.

-becca

[Bearfootfarm]

Glad to hear it worked out well

[Cliff]

You have to be careful with the first couple bottle feedings. If they're not sucking well the temptation is to squirt milk in their mouths. If they don't swallow it gets into their lungs.
Ask me how I know