Kiding Practice and Things to know

[ntjpm]

Ok, as a total newbie and a person who does not own a single goat, BUT would like to someday, I have been reading on here for a while and talking with as many goat people as I can so I can go in with my eyes open and all the knowledge I can stuff into my brain.

I was talking with a goat friend (you know who you are) about how on earth you can really be prepared for a goat to kidd if you have never participated in a birth and you truly have no one around to help or mentor you. And she mentioned a method she was taught when she first started that let her "practice" for the actual birth and having to intervene and "go in". And she had several other great tips on what to look for and when to do things.

Soooo I thought what better place for this information to be complied. With the absolute wealth of experience here I thought I would humbly ask all of you who are old hats at goat's giving birth to give us inexperienced people your best advice for both practice (before your goat is in labor) and what to do during when you think something might not be going right.

Please remember to use little words with us and explain in more detail than you probably think is really necessary . Assume you are talking with someone who is looking at a goat butt for the very first time and just found out that there is a baby (or two) trying to come out. (Please ignore the obvious fact that you should have known this before you got into this situation LOL)

The goal of this thread is to TEACH. And hopefully we can help save lives of both babies and mommy goats and give confidence to anyone who is facing this new (to them) situation.

Someone here recently posted this website and I thought it was great so I will start with it. http://fiascofarm.com/galleries/Goat...ons/index.html

Ok so I am going to add a list of things to do BEFORE your doe kidds. I will add to it as you ladies fill it in for me.
1. Find a Goat friendly VET. (this is vital and do everything in your power to get this done) Print out all of his/her contact info on a 3X5 card and post it where you can see it even when you are out of your mind with worry.
2. Find a friend. This is a person preferably near by however if you don't have someone near by find a friend who had done this before and get her/his phone numbers. Print this information out on the same 3X5 card as the above vet and post it where you can see it. (If you are willing to be a friend to someone who is new would you be so kind as to post your willingness and your general geographic area. Then someone can PM you to get your contact info so no creepy people will get your personal info but someone can get the help that they might need.)
3.Get together you Kidding stuff. This is all of the things you might need during birth and includes????? (help me fill this in please)
~~ A. Lube (what is this anyway)
~~ B. Gloves (what kind)
~~ C. Paper Towels (for wiping gooey noses)
~~ D. Big Towel (for wiping down baby if mommy needs some help and it is really cold outside)
~~ E. Bulb Syringe (for cleaning out anything that might have gotten in) OR be ready to "Swing" them (Can someone explain this and if you do/don't do it why)
~~ F. Iodine (Where do you get this and is it just the same stuff I get at Walmart or Target?)
4. Practice going in and turning a baby. (method to practice to follow, do not do this on your goat)
5.
6.?
What next????

Thank you so much in advance your help and advice we really, really appreciate it, Tracy in WA

[dm9960]

great idea Tracy!

[thaiblue12]

Well I stare at goat's hind ends more that I care to admit and have stuck my hand in many many a goat.
The things I look for a simple and out of the tons of kids born here I have missed very few births.
If you know when your doe is due start looking at her vagina 2 weeks out. I mean daily, her bag as well. You will notice her vagina getting longer and her bag growing.
I totally suck at these supposed ligaments and finding them so I do not bother.
The day she will give birth her vagina will be longer and more open, her bag should be huge, her tail looks like it is broken and she walks around like she has a stick shoved up her booty. That is the day the kids will be born. Teeth grinding, getting up and down, pawing at the ground, yelling, grunting and pushing are all a normal part of it.
I do go in a bit to feel for a hoof. That is what you should feel but it might be a breech, I usually do not go futher in unless the doe is really screaming for all she is worth. The more you try to go in the more they try to push you out and they will get a breech kid into the canal and if a another is behind you have no real shot at least in a Nigie to turn that kid around. I just gently try to get the kid out quick. Breech kids I clean their faces off well and I hang them by their back legs and lightly hit them on their chest/sides to make sure they get it all out as they seem to suck in amnio fluid. I have had 4 breeches and did not do this for the very first one and he got the rattles. The other 3 did not so while I am not sure it is really working I still do it.

Problems would be pushing for hours and not progessing. Go in feel and try to get the kid moving, if you cannot then call a vet or your goat mentor. Don't let her sit there trying to get a kid out for 8-12 hours.
A doe with a long oozing string hanging out for days and doing nothing to try to get the kid out. The day I saw it I called the idiot vet and he said that was normal and it could be there for a few days. The next day it was still there so I went in as far as I could and felt a hoof, that was not in a sac so I knew the kid was dead and I tried to pull him. Then I tied a string around the hoof and tried to pull him. Since I knew he was dead there was no reason to care if I broke a leg. Still could not get it adn found a good vet who had to do a c-section because just that one leg was in the canal and never signaled to her to push. She was also chunky so I saw do not bred chunky to fat does. Slim them down before you get them pregnant.
Screaming is one thing but then there is the real serious screaming that should tell you something is not right.

If you plan to dam raise make sure the kids find the teat, some are just not that bright and end up sucking under the does arm pit. If you plan to raise kids on CAE prevention then pull them right away do not even let the doe lick the kid/kids. The does cry for days and make you feel bad, but someone on here said that they found a better way, less stressful to the doe. Milk her out after you get the kids away, I freeze that colstrum for emergencies.
I did cords, give a vit E pill to the kids, make sure they eat, either from their mom ora bottle, warm and dry and I have probably written a novel so I am stopping now

Oh I forgot about bouncing, I stink at it, maybe because I remember them pushing on my stomach after I gave birth and it was not pleasant so I probably do not push on my does hard enough. I know they are done kidding when I see a bunch of tendon looking things hanging out of her. I know that they are attached to the placenta and that is all that is left. I wonder however if there is ever a time that a kid could be behind the placenta, I have not seen that yet and hope I do not.

Aren't you close to Goat Servant? I bet you could see a few preggo does, buy some goats, catch goat fever over there lol

[ntjpm]

I forgot it add that if you have Pics to add to your explanation that would be wonderful!!!!!!!!

Also assume we know nothing. Like what are LIGS??? And why am I trying to find them??

Tracy in WA

[ntjpm]

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

Aren't you close to Goat Servant? I bet you could see a few preggo does, buy some goats, catch goat fever over there lol

Thanks for the info Tahi, Yes I am so blessed to be close to her and I can't wait to get over there and see some real live goats lol.

However my thinking with this thread is more for all those people who might not have access to anyone and needs to figure things out on their own. And also so I do not look really stupid the first time I hang out with Goat Servant hehehe.

Tracy in WA

[thaiblue12]

Ligs or ligaments are on either side of the does tail, I have heard that htey feel like pencils and if they are soft, gone or mushy birth will be soon. I cannot tell you on the over 20 plus pregnant does I have had here how many times I have tried and failed to find these things!

I also forgot to add that most does will separate themselves from the herd on birthing day. Which is another thing to look for.

I am sure that Goat Servant knows you are new and will not think you are stupid. At least she knows what she is doing. When I met a lady with pregnant does she was feeling on the wrong side of the body and saying feel the baby kick and I sat there thinking isn't that the goat's rumen? but I said nothing decided she was not that experienced either, thanked her and left

I have lots of "goat porn" we probably all do. I also have a walking whale I hope pops soon, if she does not give birth in the middle of the night I will try and take action pictures I bet other have step by step pictures too. I tend to be a bit too messy to want to touch my camera during birthing so I usually wait till after.

[yarrow]

okay.... I just came in from taking some pictures.. I took pictures of only 1st or 2nd freshener (does that are pregnant for just the first or second time)... the older does get so big it's almost impossible to MISS changes with them.. but the young girls (which most newbies will be dealing with..well the changes in their baby bellies can be hard to notice)....
this is Ruthie.. she is at 146 days along.. I *expect* she will kid on 150 (the 3rd) Ruthie is pregnant for the 2nd time. She is only this afternoon starting to *drop* this morning she looked like a high/tight beach ball.. now I can see a bit of flattening in her flanks (will take more pics each day until kidding to show the difference). where the *shadow* is on her right side? it was round earlier today


this is Vivian.. she is due on March 15th. She too is a 2nd freshener. She is still high & round.. no indention on her upper flanks. She is standing next to Ruthie in the next picture. Look along Ruthie's side.. see the difference? not much, but it's there and it's a good sign to watch for.. see the udder's. Both are starting to fill, but Ruthie's is more pronounced (esp. her teats)

[yarrow]

this is Amelia.. she will be a first time mom. She is 145 days bred, due on wed.
She too began to drop today. Her little udder had really changed since yesterday. You can see Amelia's flanks in the above picture with Ruthie & Vivian.. The big brown girl is Lydia.. she is pregnant for the 2nd time. She is due on March 12th. She had a rough time as a first time mom.. she had a HUGE single buckling. She had a rectal prolapse. She has *so far* LOL, had a normal pregnancy. She will be closely watched this go-round. She is showing no signs or dropping. She will be happy when she does drop...she is miserable!


this pictures shows Lydia again.. see the *wrinkles* on her vulva? ALL the pregnant girls have wrinkley rears!~ Lydia's udder is just beginning to expand. In the pictures of the cream girl (Amelia) see how she is starting to poof up on her vulva..her *wrinkles* are smoothing out due to the swelling.. another *sign* to watch for..


As for ligaments???? NONE of these does.. even the two does due in a couple days have even begun to soften up.. I can still feel them on all four. Ruthies are a tad spongy, but no real changes yet..


I will continue to take & post changes as they occur..
susie, mo ozarks

[ntjpm]

Thank you those are wonderful pics..... And thank you Thai for the description of the Ligs I keep hearing about them..........

Let me ask this, what kind of things do you keep on hand in your Birthing Kit to have with you just in case? Meds? Gloves? Phone? What phone numbers??
Basicly, what should I make sure to have before the big day?


Keep em coming I know that there are some great Pics and Advice out there.

Tracy in WA

[Goat Servant]

Good thread Tracy! Wish you coulda been there when Topline kidded but she had trouble so I didnt call.
Here's the story;
It was her 2nd kidding. Most of my Boer girls show hardly any signs until they are actually in the process.
12:30 pm began her saga.
She delivered a nice size doeling & spent lots of time cleaning & talking to her.
Maybe 20 minutes later a pair of feet came hanging out.
I waited a few minutes but she had stopped pushing.
This is a sign something is wrong.
Went in could not find head. Called a friend still could not find head. Kept fishing & fishing. I could have just felt for the chest and gone from there but didnt occur to me till later.
Vet came out it was 3pm. She pulled kid & another doeling & made sure no one else was in there.
"Icabod" lived maybe 10 minutes.

The longest anyone has ever taken was 2hrs to finish. They normally have them 5 or so minutes apart.

One year the Nubian (granted they can be drama queens) was screaming for about 5 minutes & presented a head. No front feet.
Had to reach in to pull those legs around. The other 3 were normal presentations.

Now then. Everyone was a newbie at some point. The only dumb questions are the ones that dont get asked.

[Minelson]

Originally Posted by ntjpm

Thank you those are wonderful, however I still don't really understand what "Ligs" are and why people are trying to see if they are gone??

Keep em coming I know that there are some great Pics and Advice out there.

Tracy in WA

Fiasco Farm has some good pictures of finding ligs...the best description is that they feel like a pencil when they are not loose...
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/prenatalcare.html#labor

[dosthouhavemilk]

http://morningmistherd.webs.com/sheskiddingright.htm

This needs some mroe modification, but it is a decent starting point.

[ntjpm]

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

http://morningmistherd.webs.com/sheskiddingright.htm

This needs some mroe modification, but it is a decent starting point.

Nice I like that website too. Another bookmark to add to the "Goat" file

Tracy in WA

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Here is a link to a thread on another forum where a lady posted a pictoral of her ND kidding quads.

http://www.goatfarmcentral.com/index...ic,1314.0.html

[ntjpm]

Ok, I added some new info to my original post if anyone can help me fill in some blanks I know I would really appreciate it.

Thank you so much to those of you who are participating in this, Tracy in WA

[shiandpete.1]

Tracy, the best thing I can tell you is to know your goat and her behavior. Not all goats go through the same symptoms, for instance Velma who is in labor right now, is eating and pushing at the same time. It isn't unusual for her to chew her cud in between kids or pushes. As for things I keep on hand, iodine, ky jelly, rags, karo syrup and I have my vets number and a family member in case I need help. When I think of more I will add to my list.

[ntjpm]

I am unable to edit my first post anymore so I am reposting this down here.

Ok so I am going to add a list of things to do BEFORE your doe kidds. I will add to it as you ladies fill it in for me.
1. Find a Goat friendly VET. (this is vital and do everything in your power to get this done) Print out all of his/her contact info on a 3X5 card and post it where you can see it even when you are out of your mind with worry. Verify that they do house calls and are willing to come out at all hours.

2. Find a friend. This is a person preferably near by however if you don't have someone near by find a friend who had done this before and get her/his phone numbers. Print this information out on the same 3X5 card as the above vet and post it where you can see it. (If you are willing to be a friend to someone who is new would you be so kind as to post your willingness and your general geographic area. Then someone can PM you to get your contact info so no creepy people will get your personal info but someone can get the help that they might need.)

3.Get together you Kidding Kit. This is all of the things you might need during birth and includes????? (help me fill this in please)
~~ A. Lube (KY Jelly)
~~ B. Gloves two kinds. 1st kind all the way to shoulder in case you need to go in. 2nd kind for handling afterbirth and general clean up. (You can choose not to use gloves in that case make sure you scrub your arms, make sure your nails are short, short, short and in you go.)
~~ C. Paper Towels (for wiping gooey noses)
~~ D. Big Towel or clean rags (for wiping down baby if mommy needs some help and it is really cold outside)
~~ E. Bulb Syringe (for cleaning out anything that might have gotten in) OR be ready to "Swing" them (Can someone explain this and if you do/don't do it why)
~~ F. Iodine, can be purchased at the feed store or CVS type store
~~G. Karo Syrup, keep light Karo syrup on hand just in case I have a weak kid, a little warm water and karo syrup and a few drops in the mouth will give that kid a bit of energy OR Nutridrench (just because it stores better in the kit than karo) this can be found at the feed store.
~~ H. Pad of Paper and Pen for keeping any important info on that you might need later.
~~ I. Scissors
~~ J. Dental floss, (for tying off the cord.)
~~K. Q-Tips (What are these for)
~~L. Thermometer (What kind)
~~M. Utility Knife (in case you lose the mom and need to get to the kidd quickly)
~~N. Hand Sanitizer
~~O. Medicines to have on hand and ready to go
~~~~ Fortified B Complex (What is this and where do you get it, how is it given?)
~~~~Antibiotics (for the mom in case you need to go in) penicillin G and Biomycin the amount to give depends on the goats weight. You can buy these from a vet supply store, or feed store. Also how it is given depends on the medication.
~~~~Doplam (what is this and how do you spell it correctly, where do you get it and how do you give it?)
~~~~Oxytocin (shed afterbirth) (Same question as above, where do you get it and how much do you give, and how do you give it and WHEN do you give it)
~~~~Other Antibiotics, (Which ones and same questions as above?)
~~P. Goat Husbandry Book (I need some Titles and Authors please which ones are you favorites?) One recommend, is Goat Husbandry" by David McKenzie, it is old so might be difficult to find, that and it is from Scotland

4. Practice going in and turning a baby. (method to practice to follow, do not do this on your goat)

5. Become familiar with your goats behavior. Know what is normal so when you see abnormal you recognize it.

6.?
What next????

Also so far we have offers for Mentors in:
Connecticut - HappyFarmer
Colorado - Shiandpete.1
If you are in these areas and are looking for a person to help talk you through (on the phone) if things go funky Look these users names up and send them a Private Mail with your contact info so they can send you their info and you can talk with them. *Note do this now not while your goat is kidding, you need to make these connections as soon as possible and also lets the person you have made contact with know that they could be called at funny times of the day. Establish this relationship early you will not regret it.

Thanks ladies, Tracy in WA

[shiandpete.1]

Gloves, I would get the kind that go up to your shoulder if you are going to use them, I prefer to just scrub my arms, make sure my nails are short, short, short and in I go. I don't use a bulb syringe but just wip mouths and noses very well and even use the finger swipe to clear out the mouth, I get my iodine at the feed store, I get tired of going through the 3rd degree and filling out all the paperwork at Walmart to purchase iodine. I keep light Karo syrup on hand just in case I have a weak kid, a little warm water and karo syrup and a few drops in the mouth will give that kid a bit of energy. I also always have fortified b complex on hand, and antibiotics just in case I need to give a shot because I have gone in. I also have my favorite goat husbandry book on hand for any questions. I use one that is by David Mckenzie and it was published in the late 60s, it has alot of info in it that I find the newer books don't. Keep asking the questions and we will answer!

[HappyFarmer]

Our kidding kid consists of paper towels, scissors, dental floss(tie off cord), bulb syringe (clean out nose-we swing them if they are sneezing a lot or not breathing), iodine (cvs brand), pad, paper, q-tips, elbow-length latex gloves (in case we have to "go in"), regular latex gloves (for handling the slime), old towel, thermometer, hanging weight scale, nutridrench (just because it stores better in the kit than karo), utility knife (in case we lose mama), hand sanitizer, and kidding season always has either printed notes or a professional goat medicine book readily available in the barn.

Oxytocin (shed afterbirth) & other meds are in the refridgerator in the event they are needed. Doplam (sp?) is on the list to get for when a kid is unresponsive, you put it on the toungue in hope to jump-start them.

I think that's everything.
HF

p.s. we're in CT, and willing to help if we are able.

[Minelson]

I would love to have a goat friend around here I don't know of anyone...and the guy I got Gretta from moved to Hawaii!