First babies today! Woo Hoo!

[Cheryl aka JM]

Well 4 of the girls have been looking like they would explode any moment now for the last 4 weeks~ so I've been watching for goo. I pretend I check 3 times a day.....but it's more like 30 times a day! LOL! When the girls see me coming with that look they tuck their tails and run from me! So I checked this morning and this afternoon.......no goo. Went out to check for goo around 3pm and Betty was down in the barn and pushing! I ran for my son and by the time we got back first baby was out. She is a First Freshener and obviously had no idea what was going on! We closed the barn to keep the other goats and the LGDs out and watched. She didn't clean the babies face so I dashed in with a towel and cleaned his face. About 10 min later another baby started pushing out. We could see his head~ then his shoulder~ his legs were backwards not forward. I was worried~ but waited. His mouth was clear and he was breathing with most of him still inside her~ but she went ahead and pushed him out with no help in another 2 or 3 pushes. I ran to the house and made a warm water/mallases mix for her. When I got back she still had not cleaned that baby so I went in and rubbed him reasonably dry with a towel. We watched and waited. About an hour later she had not passed the after birth~ but she was cleaning them and letting them look for the teats. About another 1/2 hour and they both got a teat and got a good suckle.

I was worried about it getting dark soon, and that I have 3 other does I think are close that may want to use that barn for birth. So I went ahead and opened up the door while watching carefully. I have two LGDs~ a 2 year old great pyr and a 1 1/2 year old anatolian. Niether have been around for a kidding before. The other goats (5 all together, 3 that are close and 2 further out) and the LGDs all went in to investigate. The goats had no interest in the babies. The LGDs went to cleaning up the birth fluids~ investigated the babies~ wagged tails and didn't show any aggression. Betty (the new mother) delivered the after birth with all of us (3 humans, 5 other adult goat does, 2 young LGDs and my house dog) in the barn with her. I was worried~ but no one messed with her or the kids, or the afterbirth hanging out of her (I was REALLY WATCHING!) Once the after birth was out of her and she stepped away from it the LGDs found and ate it. I let them without any indication of "Good dog" or "Bad dog" from me. But every time they sniffed one of the two kids I did "Good dog!" at them.

It's dark now. One LGD (the great Pyr) is in with the new momma/kids and expectant mothers. The other LGD (the anatolian) is in with the pigs and the buck goat. We checked the babies (both bucks) again at dark and they were still in the barn, with their momma. No one bugging them. We KNOW we have an active predator in the area~ who has been in my pastures when my dogs are out of it (not sure if it is a coyote or a dog) so I am worried~ but the Great Pyr LGD is in with the new momma/kids and the expectant moms.

Does everything so far sound okay? I'm thinking it does but I don't have enough exp to be confident.

My plan is first thing in the morning to take Betty (the new mom) out to worm her (Cydectin pour given orally)~ give her some selenium/vitamin E gel (can't get BoSe~ have it in Oral Gell form) a new copper bolus (she is due next month but I figure a new bolus now would be a good idea). I had considered giving the kids a taste of the selenium/vitamin E gell but they seem strong, lots of bawling, standing within an hour, searching for nipple quickly......so I don't want to overdue if Betty is getting enough for them too.

I'd like to milk some colustrom off Betty while I have her out in the morning since I don't have any but the powder stuff if I have a problem later. How much collustrom can I milk off a FF 3/4 Boer 1/4 Kiko cross doe and still leave enough for the twin bucks she delivered today?

[farmmom]

Congratulations!!! You know we need pics for proof!!

[cjb]

Pictures or it didn't happen

[Cheryl aka JM]

I took pics with my camera phone.....thought I bought the right cord to go from my phone to the PC......doesn't fit.

[Cheryl aka JM]

anyone have a suggestion how much collustrom I can reasonable milk off a FF meat doe to freeze for future use without hurting her two new bucklings?

[thaiblue12]

Did you iodine their cords? I also take a vitamin E gel pill and cut it and give it to the kids to get their appetite going.

I would not leave your LGD in with them since if I remember right he is still pretty young? Not saying he will kill them but he has not had any baby experience till now. I have moms that beat the snot out of the dogs if they get too close teaches them space and to respect the babies. But when they are young and have no experience they might try to play or chase them.

Make sure the boys are well fed then milk out some but not empty. Wait a few hours and milk out some more and then right before dark do it a third time. I do it three times with hours separating it so I leaving enough for the kids. Watch that she does not put her foot in it. I have had that happen and ruin it!

Yup pictures, that is a goat rule, lol.

[Cheryl aka JM]

I've got pics on my phone but the cord is not right. Hubby will be home Sunday night with the real camera I have a cord for. Meanwhile~ I did not iodine the cords......I hoped they would be okay they way they were, and I did not give any supplements to momma or the babies today........again hoping my husbandry to this point would make for healthy babies that would be fine the way they were. I'm HOPING that we will be able to get to where the does can deliver naturally without my intervention at all.......but since we are new at this I watched carefully for the first delivery and tried to observe with minimal interaction. I did wipe the babies off when momma did not.......I would have preferred she did that.....but she didn't look like she was going to so I did. I did close the barn door to separate the LGDs from her while she was kidding......but my preference would be for them to be able to be attendant during births in case I'm not. Thats why I opened it up so soon after the birth while I watched. The one with them tonight is 2 years old this March, the younger one is 2 years old this June. I actually trust the younger one more based on how she reacts to the pigs.........but because the older one can not be trusted with pigs (he considers them predators and I can not convince him not to kill the small.....young.....ones he can catch he does not go in that pen when there is young ones there like right now) so the older older one I don't trust as much is in with the goats and the new babies tonight. I'm nervous......but hoping he will prove to be reliable. He has been so far with everything BUT baby pigs......and he makes it clear he HATES adult pigs (both dogs hate them but the younger Anatolian does not see them as predators......just as something she hates) so the older Pyr is in with the new goats for the night. They NEED a gaurd. I KNOW there is a predator out there who can get into the pen when the dogs are out of it.......and those new babies are LOUD.....almost like they are calling every predator in the county!!!!!!

[thaiblue12]

Well can you put them in their own stall? I like to separate does and new kids for a few days anyway so they bond well and no one irritates them. I missed a birth this year and the new mom thought a different pair of kids are hers and abandoned her doelings, that is how I ended up with the first pair of bottle kids. The kids she thinks are hers have two moms and nurse off both and are a fat pair of little boys!

I understand you not wanting to have to do too much intervention but dipping cords helps prevent naval ill. A vit E pill helps new kids appetite. Not a lot of messing with them just a bit of prevention.

I like to be at births since not all kids like to come out the way they are suppose to. First kid this year was a double breech and had to be gently pulled.

Yes new kids scream alot the first few hours! I feel like they are calling all coyotes around me for miles.

[Cheryl aka JM]

I could dip cords.....I didn't think it was needed.....but I could do that from now on if it is. A vitamin E pill? I was trying to limit my touching of the babies at all until Betty (momma) could bond with them. I have selenium/vit E gell......and Nutri Drench.....both of which I considered giving to the babies right away.....but like I said I was trying to limit my interaction so Betty would bond with them. She was obviously confused at first......and I wanted to let her get the idea that they needed her rather than pull them away from her at all. I can see how I could have dipped navels without much intervention.......but when should I have pulled them to force a capsule down them? Before or after she allowed them to nurse? She was'n't real keen on the idea of allowing them to touch her udder for quite a while......it was a learning exp for both her and the babies. I watched.....and didn't want to interupt if I didn't have to.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I always dip the navals, worm momma day of kidding after the babies eat & things settle down a bit. I'm like Thaiblue12 tto, I do alot of the same things as she does & keep my doe & kids seperate for a few days to bond with each other, etc.

It is so exciting having new babies, especially when your lucky enough to withness the births! Congratulations & I can't wait for those pictures!!

[Natural Beauty Farm]

Here we give CDT and Bo-Se shot a month before kidding to Doe.
Catch kids, clear lungs (hang them upside down while they cry hard, its good for them and they won't aspirate fluids that will lead to Pneumonia later)
Clear them off vigorously, to get the blood flowing good and get them breathing nice.
Dip cords
Break a Vit E capsule open and squeeze it into mouth
Little Vit A
CC of Bo-se
Check for problems
Put them down and repeat with next kid coming out.

Doe does not care, she is in labor, she will not abandon her kids if your scent is on them. She smells the butts to check for her scent. That is why if you have an orphan kid you can rub it on a does butt until her milk has passed through the kids system and she will adopt it.

New LGD, no way it would be left alone here with new kids until I trusted it. If I could not keep someone in a secure pen then the LGD would be in an airline kennel in the goat pen for the night. They will keep predators away with barking. A FF will be so sketched out it could set off the LGD to protect the kids and then you will not have bonding, just cold kids in the morning.

[thaiblue12]

None of my does ever rejected a kid because of touching. Actually unless you do you not care if they are wild, you should handle them daily. Do not pick them up as they do not like it, but sit in their with them wiggle your fingers, scratch their shoulders etc. They are nosy as heck and if you handle them from day one they will not be wild kids that you later have to try to tame. Or they are destined to the meat locker and do not care abot temperment?

I am not sure about the sel/vit e you mentioned. I just have human Vit E gel pills, snip off the end and squeeze it into their mouths. Don't give them anything else orally as they only should be getting their mom's milk and nothing else. Right now only one chamber of their stomach is working. I give a little Probios later to make sure their rumen gets a good start and I vaccinate them bewteen 6 to 8 weeks old with 2 cc of CD&T, booster 3-4 weeks later with same amount.

I wonder if your 2 yr old LGD realizes that pigs are opportunists. I know given the chance they willl eat baby goats, chicks, chickens and etc. I really would not correct or stop a doe from beating either of them if they get too close to the babies. I would not say anything to the dogs either, just let it happen. My poor now 2 yr old followed me into a new mom and baby stall. I did not know he was right behind me, he was 4 months old at the time and she butted the tar out of him, I was trying to get the stall door opened and let him out but she had it blocked so I ended up picking him up and tossing him over. He never looked at a kid cross eyed after that

[Cheryl aka JM]

Originally Posted by Natural Beauty Farm

A FF will be so sketched out it could set off the LGD to protect the kids and then you will not have bonding, just cold kids in the morning.

I suspect exactly that was happening. Tater (the Grt Pyr) was not snarling at Betty (Momma goat) or doing anything I could identify as confrontational at all (and I REALLY watched) but continually yesterday I would find him laying down between her and her babies, while both her and the babies were bawling. Betty is very much bottom goat in the herd and I suspect she just doesn't have the confidence to insist Tater get out of her way. One of the more confident goats may do better! So I moved Tater into his feeding station while I got a dog house (for shelter), some hay and water set up in a little pen I have right up against the goat pen where Tater can still gaurd them....but can't get in to separate them from each other. Hopefully that will only be needed for a couple days until they bond good and if Betty won't push past Tater maybe the babies will! Today I will also be setting up another Dog Kennel I have with another dog house for the next doe to go if needed.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I appreciate it! I don't want them wild....but I don't want them petty either.....they are meat and I don't want to get attached like a pet. So I am touching them, petting them.....but trying not too much. I did Worm, Copper Bolus, Selenium/vit E gell for Betty yesterday. Milked a little colustrom off her (She has an awful udder with several fish tail teats so we knew any babies she had were meat long before we even bred her) so milking her was hard......but there was plenty in the bag and the babies don't seem nearly as challenged at milking those teats as I am! I'll get pics today!

[mahafakir]

You are a good woman. You are worried about how much milk you can take from your goats without starving the Goat kids. i see that lots of people have answered your question. I've not read their answer. But I'll tell you this no one can answer that question without knowing how much milk your goat produces. The best thing for you to do is to wean the kids and feed them by bottle. That way you know how much milk they are getting. If you have the goats to make mke money by selling the milk You would want to give them as little as possible without starving them to death. If they are your pets you'd want to have as little from them as you'd need for your coffee.

If this alternative sounds too harsh for you You'll have to milk your doe completely without sharing any with the kids. That time feed the kids with a bottle. Make sure that the goat had not been milked or had not nursed the kids for 12 hours. Then milk her. You'll know how much milk the Doe is capable of producing. Then you can decide how much milk you can take from your does considering that you have a lot of them and may not need too much milk from each of them.

But if I were you I'll take the milk away from the goats and give the milk to children whose parents do not have money to buy the milk.

You said that your does were not accepting the kids when they were born. If this is what you said it is because they have been raised by being fed by a bottle and are used to being milked by humans. Since they are the kids of your goats I won't lecture you as to whether you want them to be raised so that want to be milked by humans or by other animals. If you let the kids milk their mothers there is a good possibilty that the goats you raise will grow up to continue to suck the milk of other does who are not even their mothers and those other Does, if they were also raised suckling the teats of their mothers. will let these rams and does help themslves to the milk.

Mahafakir

[cjb]

I let our does raise their babies (mostly) and the offspring have never had any problems being hand-milked by humans nor have they nursed off of other does.

[Cheryl aka JM]

Got those pics I promiced today:
Betty and the two bucks she had on Saturday:


One of the bucks:


Then I noticed this afternoon Crackers snuck off in the woods.......I followed her with my camera:





Two more bucks! Oh well~ they are cute and Crackers is an exp Momma with an occasional bad attitude. When Tater went over to see what she had she made it real clear to him it was NONE OF HIS BUSINESS! I'm sure she'll be the one to teach the young LGDs where the boundaries are for does and babies!

[ntjpm]

Wow nice pictures, they are adorable. Congrats on your new babies.

Tracy in WA

[DairyGoatSlave]

congrats! cute kids!

[farmmom]

Adorable!!!