Heat treating and pasteurizing

[KimM]

I had my herd tested for CAE at BioTracking last month. All were negative except for a doe that was had been quarantine for 4 weeks. This doe was supposedly raised on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk and the breeder claims their original does all came from CAE free farms. They do show at their county fair.
I called BioTracking and had a long discussion about CAE and transmission, etc. We discussed heat treating and what he told me was that under extensive laboratory tests, that colostrum OR milk should be heated to 133-140° and maintained for a minimum of 1 hour during which time it should be stirred frequently to avoid cold spots. (Either use a clean spoon every time you stir or leave your stirring utensil in the colostrum or milk).
I see on many websites where people are using the "flash pasteurizing" method (milk) which I was told is not completely effective in killing the CAE virus.
I did call the breeder to let them know what I found, they said they wouldn't take the doe back as they've never seen it in any of their goats and reiterated that point several times even after I explained that some infected goats never show syptoms, but that they would replace her (Uhh, no thank you!) I did give offer them several links to learn more about CAE.
Anyway, I thought I'd share this for people who might not know.

[luvzmybabz]

I would pick out the replacement and have her tested before she left their farm. Pastureizing the colostrum is very hard as it will turn to a lump of mush if it is not done correctly I sat over 3 pans with glass jar inside trying to pasturize last year, it was all thick mush I ended up using colostrum replacer. This year I will be using cow colostrum.

[thaiblue12]

Wouldn't doing that for that high a temp and for an hour pretty much destroy all the benefits of the colostrum?

Sorry about the doe, I would test her again with a different lab before I wrote her off.

[wintrrwolf]

hey thai! That was going to be my question...heat treating at high temp for that long basically you would be burning/cooking off all the benefits, might as well just give some store bought cows milk right?

[KimM]

No it doesn't according to BioTracking. As long as you keep the temp under 140°.

Thanks, she's a sweetheart of a girl, a yearling Alpine (grade). They tested the sample twice, both inhibition numbers were 90% so there'e no point in retesting. She's still segregated until I figure out what to do. I know, most would butcher her or put her down. I'm hoping to find a pet home as a companion to a mini horses or something. If I can't find the right situation, I'll have her put down I guess. Just really hate to kill such a loving being. I have thought of doing a PCR test to see if it could possibly be mycoplasma although she has no symptoms. I still need to read up on that more.

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

Wouldn't doing that for that high a temp and for an hour pretty much destroy all the benefits of the colostrum?

Sorry about the doe, I would test her again with a different lab before I wrote her off.

[KimM]

There's a jersey dairy just down the road from here. I think I'll ask to buy some colostrum from them to bank, in case I mess things up. Make sure they test for Johnnes.

Originally Posted by luvzmybabz

I would pick out the replacement and have her tested before she left their farm. Pastureizing the colostrum is very hard as it will turn to a lump of mush if it is not done correctly I sat over 3 pans with glass jar inside trying to pasturize last year, it was all thick mush I ended up using colostrum replacer. This year I will be using cow colostrum.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I see on many websites where people are using the "flash pasteurizing" method (milk) which I was told is not completely effective in killing the CAE virus.
....................

I would seriously doubt that they are giving out information on how to heat treat and pasteurize when they are a lab....sorry but 140 degrees for 1 hour is heat treating colostrum and pasteurising milk is 165 as fast or as slow as you want to get it there, give it a big stir and make sure it's all 165 and turn it off. None of us would be negative had these instructions not worked back in the early 90's.

If the doe is testing positive than she is, she recieved colostrum from a positive doe no matter what the folks are saying now. Sorry the breeders are so unscripulous and sorry that you didn't get a contract that said they would give you your money back or give you another doe if their goat tested positive at your new farm in the first weeks.

Did they show you their negative tests on their goats who supplied milk for this doe? No? What a shocker Vicki

[KimM]

So if you doubt that I got this information from BioTracking, then I must be making it up or lying, is that what you're insinuating? This was told to me by Chuck Passavant PhD, Sr Research Scientist, BioTracking. I took notes as he spoke so yes, he DID give out this information on how to heat treat and pasteurize properly. You can "doubt" what they told me all you want but I know what he SAID TO ME me on the phone. Anyone can call him and ask. Being that they *are* a lab and *he said* these tests were conducted under lab settings, I trust his word just a little more than what I read on many websites.
I shared information from a credible source.

I'm not worried about recovering anything from the doe and I don't believe the breeder is unscrupulous but unknowledgable of the facts. They did offer a replacement, I just don't want it.

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I see on many websites where people are using the "flash pasteurizing" method (milk) which I was told is not completely effective in killing the CAE virus.
....................

I would seriously doubt that they are giving out information on how to heat treat and pasteurize when they are a lab....sorry but 140 degrees for 1 hour is heat treating colostrum and pasteurising milk is 165 as fast or as slow as you want to get it there, give it a big stir and make sure it's all 165 and turn it off. None of us would be negative had these instructions not worked back in the early 90's.

If the doe is testing positive than she is, she recieved colostrum from a positive doe no matter what the folks are saying now. Sorry the breeders are so unscripulous and sorry that you didn't get a contract that said they would give you your money back or give you another doe if their goat tested positive at your new farm in the first weeks.

Did they show you their negative tests on their goats who supplied milk for this doe? No? What a shocker Vicki

[Alice In TX/MO]

I *think* Vicki meant that she was surprised that they were handing out info that she thought was out of their area of expertise. Hopefully, her phrase of "I can't believe" wasn't directed at your reporting, but her feelings about the lab offering this advice.

[jBlaze]

I have seen TOO MANY cases of goats that were raised on pasturized colustrum / milk that End Up POSITIVE! (after waiting till the dead antibodies pass)

We has a great little doeling that tested positive a year after we got her, hoping that her positive was just from the antibodies that are still in the pasturized milk and that the virus was killed. But, no, pasturizing did not work in that case. This was from a judge.

Talking to another breeder, found that another breeder is selling kids "raised on strict prevention" but many of them end up positive adults. This is one of the top breeders.

People are Relying Too Much on the Pasturizers!!!

I had 3 does that were positive. One I knew about, but bred her anyways for her genetics. The other two were sold to me as negative and stupid me believed the seller. (SO glad I test before kidding!!) I raised Negative kids from them all.

I lost a lot of sleep checking on those does in the weeks before they kidded, I HAD to be there to Snatch those babies! And we were for every one. We taped the does' teats just in case.

I fed them frozen colustrum from my mature negative does (had plenty!) And we raised the kids on whole milk from the grocery store. (of course those were the first to kid.)

Those kids have tested negative every time since. They are 2 years now and look good.

I will not rely on someone elses pasturizer. Ever!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Yes more in the vein of should he be? He has never raised a goat, and can only parrot what he has been told. How can 20 years of pasteurising and heat treating now be wrong? And no I wouldn't use a actual pasteurizer unless I used an external temp probe also, because we know even temp probes can be wrong, along with the one that comes on the unit. I use two candy thermometers at all times so I know if they are not within a degree of each other one is broken, you could go all season using a broken thermometer and not know otherwise.

Thank you for telling us that he is giving out this information because I am going to talk to him, we don't need missinformation coming from a lab we all use and steer new folks to because of the value of the testing they do both for CAE and pregnancy. It's just so odd to me that he even has an opinion on management.

Tests were also done on colostrum from positive does and it was realtively easy in all conditions to kill the virus without killing the IeG's of immunity found in the colostrum that was less than 12 hours old.

When you visit most farms, you can see why there are breaks in CAE prevention....you can read it on the internet....they don't test to know which does are positive, they aren't there catching every kid born and children are doing the bulk of baby raising, that trilogy of mistakes is why there is still CAE so rampant in the dairy industry.

And to be clear what Chuck said on heat treating is exactly right but did you say this following sentence or him?? " I see on many websites where people are using the "flash pasteurizing" method (milk) which I was told is not completely effective in killing the CAE virus." Vicki

[KimM]

A couple more things I was told during our conversation was that it is possible to trasmit the virus at birth by the doe's vagina secretions and/or blood being ingested by the kid so you have to be careful about getting the kid out and away, as you obviously did. That could be one explanation to some of those cases. And kids fed heat pasteurized milk from positive does should show clear after 6-8 weeks past weaning.
What I want to know is how did goats ever survive all these centuries with all they're susceptable to?

Originally Posted by jBlaze

I have seen TOO MANY cases of goats that were raised on pasturized colustrum / milk that End Up POSITIVE! (after waiting till the dead antibodies pass)

We has a great little doeling that tested positive a year after we got her, hoping that her positive was just from the antibodies that are still in the pasturized milk and that the virus was killed. But, no, pasturizing did not work in that case. This was from a judge.

Talking to another breeder, found that another breeder is selling kids "raised on strict prevention" but many of them end up positive adults. This is one of the top breeders.

People are Relying Too Much on the Pasturizers!!!

I had 3 does that were positive. One I knew about, but bred her anyways for her genetics. The other two were sold to me as negative and stupid me believed the seller. (SO glad I test before kidding!!) I raised Negative kids from them all.

I lost a lot of sleep checking on those does in the weeks before they kidded, I HAD to be there to Snatch those babies! And we were for every one. We taped the does' teats just in case.

I fed them frozen colustrum from my mature negative does (had plenty!) And we raised the kids on whole milk from the grocery store. (of course those were the first to kid.)

Those kids have tested negative every time since. They are 2 years now and look good.

I will not rely on someone elses pasturizer. Ever!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Humans cause all the disease in their livestock. If we hadn't pulled all the kids born, fed pooled colostrum and pooled milk to all our kids, sold the kids....then found out that goats carried this virus, CAE would have been self limiting. It would have only been found in the family line that had this virus or other kids who stole milk from other does while nursing. There isn't one thing that our goats catch, mastitis, pneumonia, laminitis, all metobolic disease at pregnancy, that can't be pointed the finger at us for missmanageing them.

There are no kids born CAE positive because goats unlike humans do not pass immunity via the placenta to their kids. It would have to be an awfully goery delivery for there everto be enough blood in the mouth of a kid for it to convert to positive from delivery. CAE comes from positive colostrum, secondly milk. In fact we had a hard time getting any positive tests from milk even with positive tests from blood and colostrum from the same doe. And no vaginal secretions of any kind including amniotic fluid ever tested positive for the virus. Knee fluid will test positive on does with large knees (one of the only symptoms ever seen early on), probably because it is filled with white blood cells from infection also. Vicki

[KimM]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Yes more in the vein of should he be? He has never raised a goat, and can only parrot what he has been told. How can 20 years of pasteurising and heat treating now be wrong? And no I wouldn't use a actual pasteurizer unless I used an external temp probe also, because we know even temp probes can be wrong, along with the one that comes on the unit. I use two candy thermometers at all times so I know if they are not within a degree of each other one is broken, you could go all season using a broken thermometer and not know otherwise.

Thank you for telling us that he is giving out this information because I am going to talk to him, we don't need missinformation coming from a lab we all use and steer new folks to because of the value of the testing they do both for CAE and pregnancy. It's just so odd to me that he even has an opinion on management. All I know is that I've read time after time, "Call them (BioTracking) they'll be happy to answer all your questions!" and so I did.

Tests were also done on colostrum from positive does and it was realtively easy in all conditions to kill the virus without killing the IeG's of immunity found in the colostrum that was less than 12 hours old. I'd be interested in where these tests were conducted and who conducted them. Just trying to learn!

When you visit most farms, you can see why there are breaks in CAE prevention....you can read it on the internet....they don't test to know which does are positive, they aren't there catching every kid born and children are doing the bulk of baby raising, that trilogy of mistakes is why there is still CAE so rampant in the dairy industry. And that makes perfect sense as well as improper heat treating.

And to be clear what Chuck said on heat treating is exactly right but did you say this following sentence or him?? " I see on many websites where people are using the "flash pasteurizing" method (milk) which I was told is not completely effective in killing the CAE virus."
I said that *I* have seen on websites where people describe how they pasteurize (bringing temp up to high temps for 15 seconds, 30 seconds, etc. I was told by Chuck that this method which HE described as "flash pasteurizing" was ineffective.
I was only relaying information as was told to me. I have no problem with you challenging the statements as they were told to me. I did not like that I was made out to be lying, embelishing, fabricating, or whatever, about something I was told and simply shared.

That said, I still look forward to reading your posts and DO respect your experience.
Kim
Vicki

It said my message was too short so that's why this is here.

[jBlaze]

When I was dealing with the CAE I called and talked to Jim Evermann at Washington State University. He was knowledgable and easy to talk to. At the time, I belive that is where the majority of the CAE research had been done.
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx

I have not used BioTracking, but I do like the idea of miltiple tests. What I was told about BioTracking is that they are a testing lab. Whereas WSU is a research lab that does testing.

If they have nice goats select and test a replacement doe. - or get one as it is being born, and you have a better chance of her being negative!
Good Luck with it!!!
When I "sold" my positive does, I had to basically give them away, because I always made certain thet the buyer KNEW.