How on EARTH is this worth it?

**mygoat** · #1 01/19/10, 04:02 PM

I just tried to copper bolus my first doe, ever. I know I'm copper deficient. She spat out both - ruined. I'm using 00 capsules. My goats are miniatures besides one 145lb french alpine wether. I just wasted 4.5 grams of the stupidly expensive stuff. If they waste half of the darn things, this can't be affordable.

I had to hand make a 6cc syringe into a bolusing gun, because my capsules/miniatures were both too small for a calf gun. The idea worked fine, the goat wouldn't swallow. The second bolus I squirted water in her mouth after the bolus to help her swallow. Both times I held her head up and stroked her throat to try to get her to swallow. After half a minute, I released her and she had spat out the capsule.

What on earth am I doing wrong. It is all but impossible to get a bolus in the back of a goat's mouth, I've found.

ozark_jewels · #2 01/19/10, 04:10 PM

I have the smallest bolus gun the feed store sells. If I put both small capsules into the gun, side by side, they hold each other in there. I straddle the goat, hold her jaw up so head and neck are in line, slide bolus gun over back of tongue and depress. Hold the head up till you are sure it worked. No issues.
I do my kids this way, because my adults get a full bolus. I'm sure if I can do my 6-7 month old kids, it should work for your minis.

HappyFarmer · #3 01/19/10, 04:15 PM

Ohh try try again.

I've almost lost a finger or two but I've shoved it straight down the back of their tongue many many times. I hold the jaw/head against my hip so I feel when they are about to move, then pull my fingers out quick. I'm not recommending this to anyone who would like to keep their fingers!

Really though, I've graduated to putting the dose into a needle-less syringe (no capsule) & dumping it down. Even this way has it's possible downfalls, no aspiration or broken bits of syringes yet.

HF

Carolyn · #4 01/19/10, 04:23 PM

we have a gun for sheep, got it years ago. but had a bolus thing for sheep as well and it worked well.

ozark_jewels · #5 01/19/10, 04:25 PM

If you jam both capsules in the gun side by side and they still won't stay, just put in one or two more *empty* capsules to hold everything intact. The empty capsules are cheap and harmless.

southerngurl · #6 01/19/10, 04:27 PM

I used to have such a hard time but I'm finally getting it down. I did 4 goats and only wasted a couple capsules. Really gotta get it way back there up and over the tongue. I take a slice of bread with me and give them a piece immediately so they forget about trying to hack up the pill.

danielsumner · #7 01/19/10, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

I just tried to copper bolus my first doe, ever. I know I'm copper deficient. She spat out both - ruined. I'm using 00 capsules. My goats are miniatures besides one 145lb french alpine wether. I just wasted 4.5 grams of the stupidly expensive stuff. If they waste half of the darn things, this can't be affordable.

I had to hand make a 6cc syringe into a bolusing gun, because my capsules/miniatures were both too small for a calf gun. The idea worked fine, the goat wouldn't swallow. The second bolus I squirted water in her mouth after the bolus to help her swallow. Both times I held her head up and stroked her throat to try to get her to swallow. After half a minute, I released her and she had spat out the capsule.

What on earth am I doing wrong. It is all but impossible to get a bolus in the back of a goat's mouth, I've found.

Couldn't you just put the desired amount of copper into a larger capsule and use a regular bolusing gun.

Daniel

**mygoat** · #8 01/19/10, 04:55 PM

Well, finished 'em all except the doe that wasted them. Despite hearing several swallows, rubbing their throats, and holding their heads up for a minute or so, all the goats crunched their boluses. What now - hope they don't die from copper poisoning?

I tried the food right after. They just pause, chew the capsule, then begin to eat.

**mygoat** · #9 01/19/10, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielsumner

Couldn't you just put the desired amount of copper into a larger capsule and use a regular bolusing gun.

Daniel

They're minis. My calf bolus gun is HUGE, might work for my full size wether only.

As for bolusing guns, I haven't the slightest idea where to buy one the right size. I don't buy supplies locally, only from jeffers. Admittedly, I've never looked for one - though I've seen ones about the size I have at TSC.

What size capsules does everyone use? As I said I tried the 00 size, and they are pretty small. Before when I asked, I couldn't get a straight answer out of anyone.

nehimama · #10 01/19/10, 05:00 PM

You really have to get it WA-A-A-AY to the back of the throat. Did you know that the smaller capsules can be administered with a pet pill gun? I found 'em at my vet's.

You will get better at it; I promise.

NeHi

**mygoat** · #11 01/19/10, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nehimama

You really have to get it WA-A-A-AY to the back of the throat. Did you know that the smaller capsules can be administered with a pet pill gun? I found 'em at my vet's.

You will get better at it; I promise.

NeHi

That's what I'm thinking, didn't get them deep enough in the throat. Impossible to do with goats kicking, screaming, bucking, tossing their head around and only a 6ml syringe... A pet pill gun isn't any bigger than my 6ml syringe that I was using, is it?

Alice In TX/MO · #12 01/19/10, 05:06 PM

I don't know if this one is smaller than the one you have:

http://www.premier1supplies.com/deta...295&cat_id=135

**mygoat** · #13 01/19/10, 05:22 PM

Yes that one is smaller... I think I will try to find one locally though because it seems a waste to buy one and pay for shipping for one measly item... and it will make that 2.00 gun about 10.00 I bet.

southerngurl · #14 01/19/10, 05:24 PM

The one Alice posted is just like mine. You might get a couple, mine got broke. I can still use it, but having two is a good idea, cheap as they are.

bluefish · #15 01/19/10, 05:57 PM

I usually let mine get a mouthful of grain and then insert the gun through the side/back of the mouth, kinda like a cat. Then I shove it back until I think it's far enough, then go back some more. If they are choking and sounding like they are gonna die, you're almost far enough back. I use one of those small balling guns and I stick it in about halfway, no kidding. Of course, mine are standard size, but still. This is with the goat in the stanchion and in a headlock. Once I got the hang of it, it really doesn't take me very long anymore and I rarely have spit out capsules. Just make sure it's really, really stuck down their throat.

Cannon_Farms · #16 01/19/10, 06:21 PM

On my NDs I have no problem using the calf pill gun, I even used one as a demo on my goat event this past weekend. I pry the mouth open, put the gun in the middle and go as far as I can and shoot, its worked on all mine so I cant understand why your having such trouble with it.

**mygoat** · #17 01/19/10, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon_Farms

On my NDs I have no problem using the calf pill gun, I even used one as a demo on my goat event this past weekend. I pry the mouth open, put the gun in the middle and go as far as I can and shoot, its worked on all mine so I cant understand why your having such trouble with it.

What size capsules are you using? Not only would my capsules rattle around in there, but even sticking them in with something like peanut butter, it would likely rattle around in there or fall out at the wrong time, or the plunger would likely just push it to the side of inside of the holder, and not 'out'. I would have gotten larger size capsules, but no one on this forum has told me what size capsules they use as a reference, so I just guessed.

I suppose I can try using it with the final mini goat I have to do, the one that spat them out. but I feel the sheep one will work better either way, might use the calf one on my one full size wether later. Plus, I have kids that need done and it would NOT work for them, I imagine.

Anywho, I'm wondering what to do now? Since they crushed them, they're going to get a high dose of copper of a short time, not a low dose over a long time. Should I worry? If no ill effects, when should I re-bolus? 6 months? 3 months?

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #18 01/21/10, 02:36 AM

Sort of like what Alice put up, I buy a pill gun for giving cats and dogs pills, I stick the capsule to it with peanut butter. IF they are crunching the bolus you are putting it on the tongue not in the back of the throat. Once I give it, I keep my hand over their nose and mouth, letting them breath of course, but so they can not open their mouth until after they have swallowed. Each time you do it you get better at it. You do have to be able to control them, I do mine on the milkstand, bucks get tied up short with their heads up. There are simply times in your goats life they have to behave, this is one of those times. Vicki

ShyAnne · #19 01/21/10, 06:46 AM

I also use the pet pill gun, you can find them at pet smart and pet co. also ask you local feed store they may have a catalog they can order from on the next shipment.
If these pills are to small, just go up to a bit bigger size next time. Besides getting the pill to stay in place because of its size the other thing is you have to get it way back there. As thermopkt said, when they are acting like they are about to die lol, your there. One suggestion that may help, I actually stand in front of my goats, and with my left hand I grab the top jaw, right hand sticks the gun down. I have found as I do this they will back up so I follow, holding head pointing up.
Sadly it just takes feeling comfy doing it. One way to practice bolousing is to get a loose mineral, and put it in the capsules. Use them to practice with, wont hurt the goat and you know they are getting the minerals. Of course, dont od them on it lol, and if they do chew it, wont hurt them.

Laura Workman · #20 01/21/10, 07:18 AM

The idea is to get the copper rods into the stomach without having them all mashed up. Having the goat chew on the bolus when it is delivered, or even regurgitate it and chew it with the cud, kind of defeats the purpose of the rods. I use a different method.

I mix the correct amount of copper rods with a bit of well-mashed banana or applesauce. Then, using something like a ProBios syringe with an opening large enough that one of the longer rod will fit through crosswise, I fill the syringe with a bit of pure banana or applesauce, then the banana or applesauce mixed with the copper rods. Then I drench the goat as usual with a paste. They tend to suck it down, or at least not fight very hard, after the first little taste because it tastes kind of good. I figure once the paste hits the stomach, the rods will sink as they're supposed to do once the capsule dissolves anyway. To keep the goat from cudding right away and give the rods a chance to sink, I usually provide some fresh browse immediately after bolusing. I've been doing this for about three years now with only positive results.