sick (and pregnant) goat--please advise

[JoannaCW]

I was dumb and distracted and failed to give my Alpine her weekly dose of Hoegger's herbal wormer 5 days ago. Today she didn't want to get up on the milk stand, picked at her grain and didn't eat much, and gave less milk than usual. She ate some hay and leaves from her feeder but not nearly as much as usual. She's had a couple of loose bowel movements. I gave her her wormer and molasses, which she usually likes, and I had to force it into her. She stands with her head lower than usual looking at the wall. She still has energy enough to butt the other goat if she gets too close...She was bred early in November.

I already know that I need to be regular about worming. I'm not sure what I can do now and whether I should be calling the vet. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[susanne]

this is NOT the time for herbal wormer. take a fecal sample to you vet TODAY and worm her with cydectin or ivermectin according to vets finding.
please don't use safeguard or panacure as this will not work either.
have you taken her temperature? f not, please do so and come back to us with result.

[Briza]

What state are you in? Herbal wormers do not work in all regions. She could simply be completely infested. Get a fecal sample that is as solid as possible and find out what she shedding. She may just need to be wormed but you will need to know what shows up in the fecal to effectively treat.
B~

[ozark_jewels]

Agree with Suzanne. Where are you located?? Also, what is her temp?? Is she up to date on her CDT vaccinations??
Is there any way she could have gotten into anything she shouldn't have yesterday??

[southerngurl]

Joanna, start her on garlic no matter what the problem is, it will help. Get some cloves and mince them and try mixing with a little wheat flour to make a little treat for her. Mine love them, especially with a little fennel and honey added. I would give up to 6 cloves per day spread out. Make them concentrated so you aren't using much flour and such.

If you have any wild garlic greens growing in your yard/field etc., give her as many as she cares to eat. You may be surprised, she may eat them even if she doesn't want other foods.

How are her eyelids?

Fecal would definitely be in order.

BTW, missing one dose is not going to cause a problem. If she has a worm problem, it's been a problem for a while for her to be sick now. Sickness doesn't happen overnight, it just shows up that way sometimes.

[madness]

Herbal wormers are used to keep worm counts low - that's why they are given so frequently. They aren't used to truly "worm" a goat, as in kill off a big infestation. So it's really not a problem to miss one dose if the wormer is working on whatever parasites you have. It sounds like this has probably been building up for awhile and is not due to one missed dose.

We use the herbals too - but I also do fecals. Otherwise, I will have no idea if they are working (that same with chemical wormers too!). So far so good (or possibly thanks to the weather) but it doesn't make me let my guard down.

Have you checked the eye membranes? That will give you an indication if she is really anemic, i.e. really infested. But don't rely on that alone!

Yes, do call your vet and bring in a sample of fresh poop - catch it coming right out of the goat if you can. You just need a few berries. Refrigerate it if you aren't headed to the vet pretty soon.

[JoannaCW]

Thank you all very much. I seem to have overreacted; she's moving around normally now, drinking, and eating lots of hay and leaves. I gave her febendozole (yes, I know it isn't one of the strongest, but it's safe for pregnant and lactating does), and if her stool doesn't normalize shortly I'll do a fecal. I called a remote vet and was told that it's probably just temporary indigestion, and that I should give her all the roughage and warm water she'll take but not give her grain for a day. I wonder if I've been giving her too much grain anyway.

[madness]

Too much grain (or a change in grain) can certainly lead to clumpy poop. I have one goat that gets clumpy poop if she even THINKS about eating something different!

Glad she is doing better. Go ahead and get a fecal done anyway. I highly recommend them for everyone since not every wormer (chemical or herbal) is going to work in every circumstance. They are pretty easy to do on your own if you have the right equipment too!

[JoannaCW]

She seems altogether better now--normal stool and everything.
What kind of equipment is needed for home fecal testing?

[susanne]

like i said in my first post, fenbezole or safeguard does not work. yes, very safe for pregnant doe but also very safe for parasites.
i would not want to gambl at this point. she might be fine now and the next stress is around the corner and then it will be too late.
fecal at the vet cost maybe $15 to $25?
for home fecaling you need microscope, saturated salt solution and slides.
you can find instructions here http://www.goatbiology.com/fecal.html

[Briza]

Fenbendazole is part of the wormer family that should be restricted to kids and does that are not bred. The entire family of wormers has been known to cause both abortions and birth defects. Some information recommends to use none of this family one month before breeding. Where did you find information that said any of the bendazole family was safe in bred does? It is incorrect. Being a mild ( ineffective ) wormer does not equal safe.
Ivermectin plus is a better choice to rid the doe of all accumulated parasites including flukes from summer. This should be standard practice before breeding and 100 days bred and immediately after kidding.
B~

[susanne]

could it be that you are mixing it up with albendazole?
this is the other white ormer that should not be used for pregnant animals because it can cause abortion (because of the flukacite) and birth defects.

panacur/safeguard (fenbendazole) is very safe for pregnant goats, unfortunately also very safe for parasites but tapes.

[Briza]

Benzamidizoles in general at effective dosages can increase the likelihood of birth defects and miscarriages in all species.
B~

[susanne]

briza where is your source?

[betsy h.]

Briza, the problem wormer for pregnant does is Valbazen (Albendazole)- please do not give it within 30 days of breeding. It can and will cause specific birth defects. Safegard, Panacur (Fenbenzadole) is safe at any stage of pregnancy, but only works *if* it is part of a worming program where multiple wormers are used.

To swing this thread way over to the side, I use Pyrantel Pamoate- Strongid paste- it is packaged as a horse wormer but it is safe at any stage of pregnancy and stays in the gut longer for more coverage.

You may want to ask a professional parasitologist- Dr. Sharon Patton at UT, Knoxville, TN- spatton@utk.edu. She will answer your questions.

But please, please DO NOT USE Valbazen on a doe who is less than 30 days bred!

[Use Less]

It sounds like there is a lot of confusion about what wormers are safe for pregnant goats. If she was mine, I'd get a sample to the vet, and get his/her advice on a suitable program. I'd take back my favorite goats any day of the week; they died of old age or serious ailments they had before we took them in. Literally. 3 came w/the house & 3 were found wandering the woods not far from us at the beginning of hunting season. Somebody couldn't even spend the time to place a "free" ad or call around to goat people. Sue

[Briza]

I am definitely not confused. My source is ME working as a vet assistant at a zoo.
Use at your own risk. The catch is that the dosages recommended do not affect most parasites and the dosages that do are questionable. It is another big pharma game.

B~

[Alice In TX/MO]

Briza,
It might help if you can cite a source for the info. A webpage that people can bookmark for future reference.

Alice

[Alice In TX/MO]

Common goat meds and how to use them:
http://www.vkvboers.com/Goat_Med_Doses.pdf

[Briza]

First please remember there was life before the internet. Everything known to man does not reduce to a web address.

While in school we had the opportunity to learn by supplying volunteer labor at our very large zoo. This class of chemicals was just becoming widely used in the 60's and some of the work we were expected to do included gathering fecal samples -preparing slides- ID parasites to species and learn the meds to use. In the time I was there many problems arose from using this supposedly safe de-wormer on pregnant ruminants and modified ruminants. But problems also extended to the birds and reptiles as well.

In pointing out this information I was hoping to express the fact that you are ONE- giving your goat drugs that do not work at commonly used dosage or TWO- giving your goat drugs that are known to have harmful effects at effective dosages.

This is part of what gives these chemicals a bad name with people who want to do as little harm as possible encouraging them to use even less effective methods like herbs and garlic which may drive some live parasites out onto your pastures where they can change form and wait for the next goat to eat them but will not kill out the egg laying populations.

Sorry this had gotten so far off the original topic. Please do not rely on herbal wormer. Take fecals and ID to species and use an effective safe wormer.
Fenbendazole is neither.
B~