Giving copper boluses - alternative

[Alice In TX/MO]

The following article has x-ray documentation that giving copper bolus contents in a way other that the bolus itself *IS* effective.

http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html

[freedomfrom4]

Since it is marshmallow do they not crunch it?

[Alice In TX/MO]

I don't know. All I did is read and post it.

[Cliff]

Sounds like they wolf it down as soon as they taste the marshmallow. I could see that, you know how greedy they are.
You could give them a little taste of marshmallow before the one with the rods to put them in super greed mode
This is a great idea, thx for posting it.

[madness]

Great article! I ended up giving our goats "copper cookies" last time because I couldn't get a bolus down and didn't have a mentor. I've been a bit worried about the amount that stayed in them. They inhale these cookies too, so hopefully it's not as bad as some would suggest!

I'll have to invest in some marshmallows...

[Farm Lady]

Thank you so much for this article, I was just getting ready to do the bolus things and not looking forward to this job. Am going to try the marshmellows and then may have a couple on my hot chocolate also.

[mygoat]

This is a great idea. Most of my does have grown to hate anything that goes in their mouth (IE, wormer) and are EXCELLENT at avoiding me.

Other than taking longer to come apart, I think it will work excellently.

[Briza]

This is NOT a great idea.
There is a greater chance of aspiration when using food to deliver meds.
Bolusing with the tube and capsule is very simple.
You cannot let the goat decide if it is going to let you do this.
You cannot be 'gentle'. You must be in control. They will read your body language and decline to cooperate. Make sure they know you mean biz and then do it safely.
They read each other for intent with body language and they will immediately know if you are hesitant and worried about hurting them. Goats are NOT gentle with each other and it takes a lot to really hurt a goat so be the boss and things will go smoothly.
Enticing them to eat meds with food is not a good idea. I cannot imagine keeping animals that I am not in control of. Clip the goat to a fence and give them the meds.
You are NOT hurting them just because they act like they don't want you to. It is a dominance issue.
B~

[Alice In TX/MO]

Everyone manages their herd as they desire. I do bolus now, after I got over the worries about it.

I have administered copper via peanut butter, also.

I wonder if my goaties would realize that the marshmallow is an alternative and reason out that they HAVE THE POWER!.

<very large grin>

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Briza

This is NOT a great idea.
There is a greater chance of aspiration when using food to deliver meds.
Bolusing with the tube and capsule is very simple.
You cannot let the goat decide if it is going to let you do this.
You cannot be 'gentle'. You must be in control. They will read your body language and decline to cooperate. Make sure they know you mean biz and then do it safely.
They read each other for intent with body language and they will immediately know if you are hesitant and worried about hurting them. Goats are NOT gentle with each other and it takes a lot to really hurt a goat so be the boss and things will go smoothly.
Enticing them to eat meds with food is not a good idea. I cannot imagine keeping animals that I am not in control of. Clip the goat to a fence and give them the meds.
You are NOT hurting them just because they act like they don't want you to. It is a dominance issue.
B~

Got some control issues there LOL?

There's physically no more reason they would aspirate using this method than they would eating normally. Maybe if there were powdered meds in the marshmallow, but not with the copper rods.
Just quicker and easier all round if you ask me.

There's no reason my dominance of my goats be unpleasant for either of us if not necessary This from a person who does not hesitate to knock an aggressive buck or cow in the head with a steel pipe in the interest of self preservation, so take it for what it's worth.

[Briza]

Well unpleasant was not what I had in mind but keeping them healthy is!
There is no way you can be successful with a large herd of mature full size dairy goats without being assertive. NO- I have no control issues- I have control which is what makes it safe for me to have goats at my age.
B~

[mygoat]

I can give them what they need, when they need it. But, I don't like it when they jerk their heads and the wormer spills out their mouth, it's wasteful. No matter how well you hold them, they can still maneuver their heads, even when I'm gripped onto beards for dear life or got them in a head lock. It doesn't mean they're un-handleable or that I'm not handling them with a 'strong hand' as is needed.

And goodness knows when they get me mad, they KNOW it, I've been known to smackdown the young and rowdy buck, or a doe that gets pushy.

I don't see how the marshmallow is any different than a bolus, besides that they're more likely to eat it all and makes it easier. How are they going to aspirate when they WANT to eat it? Usually that only happens when they are fighting you.

[susanne]

everybody has to do what they need to do. i'm not a sugar person, so a bolus it is

[Wags]

Thanks for sharing the link - looks very promising.

Hmmm.... They say to use the least amount of marshmallow needed and since I have Niggies I wonder if I could use mini-marshmallows.

I don't think 1 or 2 marshmallows is going to introduce a ton of sugar into them - especially when you only do it 2-3 times a year.

[mygoat]

Considering I regularly share packs of skittles with mine, I think a marshmallow every 6 months won't hurt.

[where I want to]

I'd heard that the reason for doing a bolus is that they end up in the correct part of the stomach to hold the rods If they just eat some, it ends up not being embedded but passing through.
Of course, I have no real personal knowledge about where they end up. Once down, I just hope for the best.

[Briza]

They are supposed to pass the rumen and go into the abomasum to get trapped in the rough surface there. If they are broken up by chewing they will get a big blast of copper immediately and have less to do the slow feed over time which negates your 6 month timeline for repeating the process.
The rods were tested and designed to lodge in the second stomach.
B~

[Willowynd]

I have a question...I do not have goats but am trying to learn all I can before I get them. The link you provided has another link on it- about copper toxicity in goats. If goats are prone to this, then why would you feed them copper rods? Would they not get enough copper in goat feed/mineral block and be less likely to be overdosed?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

It's just a website with information gleaned from other websites You would be hard pressed to find any information on copper that didn't come originally from saanendoah.com and you wouldn't find any goats who died of copper toxicity except perhaps in a lab.

Read read read and then take on what responsiblity you are comfortable with.

You don't want these copper bolus chewed, and like I said on my forum with this subject, buck up! Stick the bolus in a $3 pill gun for dogs, its' a little plastic dealy sold at all feed stores and pet smart type places. Stick it in with peanut butter or something to stick the bolus into the little cup, open their mouth like putting a bit in a stubborn horses mouth and put the pill gun in the back of the throat and push. Hold their mouth shut. I do their bolusing before milking, this way after I bolus they are more interested in eating than what I just put in their mouths.

And because I thought it was amusing....what is it with goat folks, I can just see the cattle guy next door, putting copper boluses into marshmellows at his cattle shute You all are making it way to hard on yourself to do a very simple task. Vicki

[Alice In TX/MO]

The following is just my opinion and thought process.

I bolus, as mentioned above, but it's a skill learned and a fear overcome. The marshmallow option is simply a step along the way to learning to bolus.

The copper particles in Copasure are not uniform. When you pour out the contents, you'll see that there are itty bitty particles and larger ones. Unless your goats are like my OCD husband and chew every bite twenty times, it is my opinion that the possibility of breaking up the particles to the point of ineffectiveness is minimal.

My dear goats get snacks such as raisins, fritos, oranges, banana peels or slices, etc. There would be no need to force a marshmallow in a goat's goozle.

I've been reading the goat discussion email list from WSU, and there has been a dialogue for the past few weeks about using copper in higher doses for control of barber pole worms, as well as the normal use for nutritional supplementation. Thus, I think the chewing issue as an aspect of overdose is moot.

I'm glad this is getting discussed thoroughly. Bolusing *IS* scary for new goat owners. I do recommend that you find a mentor and learn how to do it. If that hasn't happened yet, then you have other options to use for the time being.

Just my dua rupia. (Indonesian)