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  #1  
Old 11/20/09, 09:05 PM
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kinder goats????

Has anyone here had any experience with kinder goats??? I have heard they are duel breeds milk/meat and are really a nice goat to have. I was just wanting to get some opinions on them. Thanks

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Old 11/20/09, 11:05 PM
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I have Kinder goats. What would you like to know? Mine are bottle raised so they are very human oriented. My does average 6.5 pounds of milk as FF which isn't bad since they carry a good amount of meatiness.

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Old 11/21/09, 05:22 AM
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I have a pair of sibling Kinder does. One was bottle-raised and the other dam-raised. Both are sweet & friendly. They are due for their second freshening in the next couple of weeks, and I can hardly wait. Their milk is sweet & rich. They don't give as much milk as the full sized dairy girls, and I didn't measure their output in pounds last year. I was very satisfied with the amount they give. It's perfect for a single or small family. My opinion, for what it's worth.

NeHi

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Old 11/21/09, 02:03 PM
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I had Kinder goats for several years, and liked them. The only reason why I went back to larger-breed goats (Oberhasli) was because I wanted to use at least one wether for packing and the Kinders won't work for that. The Obers are quieter, though. The only thing I will say is if you plan to milk your goats, to get does in milk, and milk them before buying, because some kids will not develop good, easy-to-milk teats even when they've been carefully bred for that. The milk is excellent.

Kathleen

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Old 11/22/09, 06:34 AM
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Thanks to all...................I have soooooo many questions............feel free to tell me anything about them!!!!!

Painted Pony, funny, I looked at your website while looking up kinders. Small world!!
I have lots of questions, where do I start . Ok, first off. At this time I am not ready to have goats so this is merely a fact finding mission, so when I am ready I'll know exactly where to go to get one, what to do and how to do it...........well at least thats my hope! I have questions about milking, making butter, cheese, ice cream and soap.What does their milk taste like, is it richer because of the higher fat content? Using them for meat, what age to butcher, what does it taste like and what do you feed them. Do you feed them differently for milk/meat? How tall/ weight.....average # of kids. How often can/do you breed? Colors/spots???? Temperament/hardiness. Do I have to start my own herd from scratch? And anything else I left out :d. Basically, Kinder Goats 101 is what I need............maybe you should write a book?
Is there a book just about kinders? Hopefully I didn't overwhelm anyone with all of these questions. Please, any info is more than appreciated.............THANKS!!!!

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Old 11/22/09, 09:35 AM
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The butterfat has a lot to do with the richer, creamier taste people talk about. Butcher when you are ready my suggestion is to send them off when they get close to 80-90 pounds or close to one year of age. Others will have an opinion on their favorite time to do this because it's personal preference and based on your Kinder line's growth rate.
Goat meat tastes like lamb/sheep to me.

Kinders can be a variety of sizes but in my experience the does average 24-25" at the shoulder, bucks at 27-28" which is the tall end of acceptable. Weights are harder to estimate because you can't accurately tape a Kinder like you can a standard breed. When we put them on the scale my yearlings were 70-90 pounds in good condition. The three year old was 125, my two four month olds are 35 & 40 pounds.

What to feed is a topic that will have many answers. I feed meat goat pellets to all goats under one year of age. They also get alfala pellets and brome hay. I have minerals and baking soda out for them as well but the meat goat pellets have most of the mineralsa so mine do not use much of the mineral until they are off the meat goat pellets. My older goats get the same alfalfa pellets, hay, minerals and baking soda but the milkers get a dairy ration that is 16% protein morning and evening. They get that until they are dried up at 3 mos pregnant and then keep it up to help the growing kids. Grain for the Kinders is about a pound at each mliking.

Any colors are possible in Kinders. They do get spots in the lines just like the Nubians. Temperments can vary as much as any breed but overall I find mine to be very smart and easy to work with. Of course, I handle mine every day so I do not know if it is that or just the personality of my goats. I find mine to be very hardy & they grow a nice coat for the winter.

If you are near a Kinder breeder you may be able to buy some. If not, you may want to buy a Nubian doe or two and breed to a pygmy or two. The next year breed to a different one. If you want the Kinders registered you'll have to have regsitered stock. If you don't care you can find some nice grade animals to start your herd. Regsitering them is really only a piece of paper since the two registries that will register them do not offer shows or other advantages for your herd. Mine are registerd but to be honest it is just a piece paper. I'd charge the same price for mine w/o papers because of the stock I started with. If you see my website, you'll see that the animals are all well-bred so the piece of paper doesn't affect that here. If you breed to different pygmy bucks you can expand your lines without having a bunch of bucks sitting around that you don't use after a year or two. If you are close to a Kinder breeder you may be able to use their Kinder bucks on your Kinder does it just depends on the breeder and where you are in the US. You can breed once a year like dairy goat people do, if you want the milk, or you can breed three times in two years like meat goat people do. It is up to you. If youdo the three in two years realize you won't be able to get much milk from your does since there bodies need the time to recover. You can breed half your does in the fall and the other half in the spring. That gives you milk all year round since their dry periods will be staggered.

There isn't a book on Kinders that I have ever heard of. Since mine are milked I use milk goat management on them. The best suggestion I have for cheese, and soap is the www.dairygoatinfo.com website. There are forums for each topic so you can gather ideas for free. The people on there are very friendly & there aren't any real "breed snobs" that I have run across.

I make soap, butter, ice cream, and soft cheeses. I have tried making hard cheeses but it is just to much time for me to invest at this point. My friend in NM makes hard cheeses.

People will tell you to start with a does in milk or one doe with her doeling but that is hard to find in Kinders. If you get one like that I'd be concerned over the quality unless it's a herd sellout. Kinders just aren't popular enough that people sell their quality milkers. I started with two Kinders and then decided to breed my own lines in to those first two.

I hope this helps get you started. My website has a lot of my herd management on it and the Kinders are managed just like the other breeds. If you ahve any questions feel free to ask. If you tell me where you are I amy be able to link you up with a breeder in your area.

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Old 11/22/09, 10:43 AM
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You're very wise to do all your homework first! So many folks get the goats first, then face a steep learning curve, or don't have the proper facilities, fencing or shelter to manage them. I can't tell you how many really nice goats I've "rescued" from situations like these. The last one was living in a veritable MUD PIT. A sweet, lovely, REGISTERED LaMancha ! ! !

Enjoy all your reading, ask lots of questions, visit a few dairy goat breeders in your area, if possible. The management for the big milkers and the little milkers is basic, and pertains to both.

Please be sure to let us know what you decide.

NeHi

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  #8  
Old 11/22/09, 06:13 PM
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Here's what I like about my Kinders Vs my other two goat breeds:
I can easily butcher the excess kids and get enough meat to make it worth my while.
I can sell the excess kids to the local butcher as long as they are under 90 lbs. I do not
like worrying about where my excess kids will go as I breed. Let's face it not all
homes are good homes & something for free is not always valued.
They are smaller than my Nubians so they take up less space & can be easier to handle
They eat less. They milk less so I can have more of them without always looking for
ways to use the excess milk
I like their little airplane ears.

My dislikes compared to my other breeds:
Kinders are not popular or recognized by any large registry so no shows (KGBA says they
offer them but it's not quite that easy. No shows since 20006). No one to show
against.
Must be willing to breed your own or travel to buy a few unrelated Kinders. It's not
easy to keep breeding them if you don't have a local Kinder breeder or you have the
space to maintain two unrelated bucks to breed your girls to. At some point you have
to plan for new blood in the herd though. I decided to buy Kinder semen from three
unrelated bucks plus house a couple here. I also have pygmy semen so I can breed
some new Kinder lines as I decide to.
Only two registries accept Kinders. I used the IDGR for personal reasons. They do offer
milk testing which is a plus, and they have a fast service with online services that
are nice.

You can butcher any goat but I am not going to pay my local butcher his price for 20 pounds of meat once he is done. It would hardly be worth it. He would not buy a ND or dairy looking Nubian either. Sale price for kids varies so much that it is not an issue in my area. Kinders do usually sell for a bit less but I can sell a Kinder faster at times because they do have enough meat to make them desirable. You can get some wild colors which are desirable in pet homes so that sales market is open to you.

In the end, you have to decide what you want goats for and then look at breeds that compliment those desires. You may even realize your goals change after a little while. If you want to show Kinders may not be a good breed. Some have been allowed to show at local 4H events but most aren't shown. If you want a nice milk goat that can be eaten and aren't to big then they are a great breed.

I am not going to talk about teat size, udder quality, or things like that because you can find good and bad ones in any breed. Kinders can have smaller pygmy size teats but so can any breed. I hand milk and my FF Kinders are not hard to milk. Hope this helps.

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Old 11/23/09, 03:14 AM
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You guys (gals) are awesome. I really want a duel breed so I think the kinder would be perfect . How old does a doe have to be in order to breed her? What are the pros and cons on bottle feeding verses keeping them with the doe? De budding, is there someone that can do it for you if you can't??? I mean I probably could but, just in case, hehehe! Kinders do have horns, right??? Most importantly, what do you wish you had known when you first started out that you didn't know??? And what do you think is the most important part of raising goats? Do they do well in any climate.....heat! How do you decide which ones to cull??? I live on the west coast, are there any kinder breeders close or some that I could go visit, even if it means traveling?? Do you think kinder milk is sweeter than other dairy breeds??? Thanks for the education

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Old 11/23/09, 05:06 AM
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Wow! You have lots of questions, and that's good. Glad you're asking BEFORE you get goats

Pros & cons on bottle feeding; I've found that the dam-raised kids are more skittish unless you have lots of time to scoop up the little ones and schmooze with them. Each one is different, though. My sister Kinders come from a doe who had one un-nursable teat. So I let one doeling nurse her mama on the good teat, and bottle-fed the other. Both stayed with and were raised by their dam. A lot less work for me in the long run, and they both got proper goat socialization.

Other breeders pull and bottle-raise the kids for many good reasons. Those kids are almost always people-oriented and very friendly.

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Old 11/23/09, 10:00 AM
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Bottle feeding Vs Dam rearing:
Bottle feeding requires more time. It's like having a baby around. There are lots of different feeding schedules out there so you pick what works for you & your schedule. Bottle feeding requires more cleanup, prep time, etc. Bottling bonds you and the kids since they depend on you to meet their needs. Bottling ensures you know how much each one eats, you know as soon as any kids is off it's feed or just not acting/feeling right since you interact so many times a day. Dam reared kids can be friendly but my opinion is that it depends on how friendly the dam and herd queen are. If the adults are skittish the kids will learn and model that behavior. Dam raised kids may like their owners but may not like strangers. Bottle kids require their own pen or space unti lthey are old enough to live with the herd. They can't be tossed in with the herd as babies so they may need a warm place to stay if you kid in the winter. It's best to have at least two obttle kids at a time to keep one another company so consider kidding out two does at the same time. My entire herd has been bottle raised and they all get along well and understand goat behavior.

You can consider breeding a doe as young as 7 months. You have to consider if she is healthy, has gained enough weight to manage a pregnancy, etc. Many wait until the doe is around 12 months of age but try not to wait so long she kids her first time after turning two.

Some vets will disbud for you for a small fee. You can also find lots of breeders of any goat breed that will help a newbie by doing it. Just make sure you plan it far enough in advance that the kids are disbudded at the right age. Around 10-14 days for most.

Deciding which ones to keeo and which ones to sell will depend on your breeding goals. Most keep their doelings from the first few breedings to expand their herd. Asa those doelings kid you can see what the strengths and weaknesses are for that dam and granddam. If they don't have the qualities you want to can sell them off, sell their kids off, rebreed to fix the things you don't like, or decide you love everything about them and keep doing the same breedings but sell some of the repeat breedings so your herd doesn't get to big. I will quickly sell off a doe that doesn't freshen with a udder that meets my standards even if she's been here over a year, but not everyone can do that. Some get to attached and want the more as pets. Once you have a doe that has the qualities you want you might consider keeping one of her bucklings, but plan to sell off or eat all your males. If you go in to each breeding/kidding planning to eat the males it's easier when they are born to let them go. Some people let the dams raise the boys so they don't get to attached and then can't butcher them.

Kinders can handle the heat and cold. Mine did just fine through our heatwaves and the ones in WA and MN handle the cold without heat lamsp or anything. They do need good shelter from the elements. Mine have a barn that keeps them warm and out of the wind. They also have shade from the sun in the summer.

I think the most important part of goat management is proper diet & nutrition. You can prevent so many problems by understanding a goat's dietary needs. After that, proper housing, and general health (hoof trimming, how to give shots, pills, etc) is important. I studied/researched goats for a long time before I bought any.

The one thing I wish I had paid more attention to was how important it was that you buy from a breeder that shares your same goals. What I mean is, don't buy from a skittish herd if you want friendly goats. Don't buy from a herd that doesn't milk their does if you want your does for milking. You have no way of knowing if the doelings you buy will milk more than a few months since they aren't bred for it, if they have good teat orifices, if they make a lot of milk or a little, and since their udders aren't holding milk for more than 3-4 months you won't know how those udders will hold up to being in milk for 10 months a year. I trusted breeders when they said their herds had good udders, teats, or whatever they said. I was soon reminded that those things are perception and if the breeder may believe it but that doesn't mean it's true.

There are some Kinders in CA (Billabong herd), OR and mostly in WA state so depending on where you live exactly you may have several Kinder breeders near you. There is one breeder in NM too.

I have three goat breeds and my opinion is that the Kinder milk is not sweeter than the others. Diet has a lot to do with milk taste. The higher amount of milk produced usually the lower the milkfat, so my Nubians producing around a gallon (8.6lbs) or more a day do not have the same milkfat as the Kinders or NDs producing 4-6 lbs a day. The milk is still very good and much better than store milk.

I hope this helps a little. It's good to see someone working to become informed before getting the goats. It will really help you to learn this stuff ahead of time so you are proactive instead of reactive all the time. Keep asking!

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Old 11/23/09, 07:52 PM
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I know for sure that I want some for milk and all its byproducts. I also want meat, so it sounds like your system of using the bucklings would be best. Also leaving them with their momma would be sooooo much easier for me, I know I would be to attached if I bottle fed .
When you are starting a herd or your own line, does the male always have to be a ND and the female a Nubian??? I read somewhere that kinder males are sterile kinda like a mule. Is that true??? If you can explain the breeding line for me, I'm not sure if I have it down correctly. Is this how it goes????

ND male + Nubian female = kinders
Kinder female + ND male = ?

What about inbreeding???? Maybe you told me already, but how many times a year can you breed? Help, and thanks soooooo much for all of the help
Do you feed them twice a day, free feed or ? So many things to consider :d

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Old 11/23/09, 10:43 PM
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Kinders are a mix of a Nubian and a Pygmy. If you bred a Nubian and a Nigerian Dwarf you'd get a "Mini Nubian" which does not have a meaty breed in it's background. Both Nubians and NDs are dairy breeds.

Kinder bucks are not sterile. I am not sure where you heard that but it is incorrect. There are several Kinder bucks out there that have lots of offspring. My own Kinders are the result of two Kinders being bred to one another & the buck is a 2nd generation. The only "for certain" sterile goat I know of is the hermaphrodites & those can be in any breed.

When you start your Kinder lines you usually get a Nubian doe & a Pgymy buck. This is because a Pygmy doe could have trouble kidding out when bred to a large goat like a Nubian & some Pygmies have such narrow rears that they have trouble kidding reagrdless of what they are bred to. Some people have used Pygmy does but it's not something I'd recommend a beginner to do.

If you want to register your Kinders with one of the registries you can't breed a Kinder to anything but another Kinder or it can't be registered. The other one I think accepts a Kinder bred to another Pygmy or Nubian but I am not 100% sure. In the mini breeds you can breed a mini back to one of the purebreeds you started with and still have it registered with the mini registries. Now, if you don't care about having papers on the goats you can breed your Nubian and Pygmy for what's called a 1st generation Kinder. You can then breed those does back to a pygmy or a Nubian and continue your lines that way. A lot of the mini breeders take their 1st generation kids and breed them back to whatever standard dairy breed they are breeding for (mini lamancha doe back to a full size LaMancha). This way they get the traits of the standard breed which is what they want. If you breed two first generation Kinders together you get a second generation, two seconds to one another is a third generation, etc.

You can inbreed if you want to, its up to you & your personal breeding beliefs. I would breed a mother to her son if the bloodlines were nice & I wanted to try and strengthen those traits in my herd.

You can breed once a year or up to three times in two years. The 3 in 2 breeding is more in line with meat goat breedings where the doe is bred, delivers, is bred again 3-4 months later, delivers, and so on. If you breed the 3 in 2 you have to realize that you will not be milking your does much because they will need a break from milking to get ready for the next delivery. Most people that breed that way are not milking their does.

My feeding program is based on me milking my does twice a day for ten months a year and the fact that I do not have tons of pasture for them to live on. My girls have 3.5 acres so I prefer to know exactly what they are eatingby feeding it to them. The does in milk are fed a dairy gain ration at each milking. The eat between 1-2 pounds of feed at each milking depending on the breed, amount of milk they give, and overall condition. My Kinders get about a pound of feed at each milking. They also get about 1.5-2 pounds each of alfalfa pellets each day (protein and calcium needs for milkers), and they get free access to brome or coastal hay & all the browse they care to eat. I doubt you could free feed a doe in milk with grain, I think she'd eat herself in to founder or something. You can free feed hay and use alfalfa hay instead of pellets. I use pellets because I hate watching the goats waste expensive alfalfa hay. Most won't eat the stems so it ends up on the barn floor as bedding. They will scarf up the pellets without wasting them so it's more cost effective for me. As I begin drying up my does I stop all grain but I start it again when the does are 50 days pregnant so I can add calories for the late/heavy pregnancy months and to help adjust it back in to their diet so when they are back in milk their diet has been slowly adjusted back to the grain. Goats should have dietary changes made slowly.

There are lots of feeding programs based on different situations just like any other aspect of goat health. Some people don't want to, or can't, milk twice a day so they leave the kids on the dams but they milk once a day. Most do this by leaving the kids with the dams for the first two weeks and then begin separating the kids at night. First thing in the morning they milk the does and then put the kids back with their dams all day. It is recommended to separate at night so the goatlings are only away from the herd during sleeping hours. Some does will not accept you milking them if they are feeding their kids, but that depends on the doe. It is easier to feed that herd since they are milked once a day, kids learn to eat whatever the rest of the herd is eating plus nurse from their dam so if you feed good hay mixes they can grow well on that without you feeding them other stuff a couple times a day. My goatlings get free access to meat goat pellets, alfalfa pellets and/or alfalfa hay, and the same hay my grown girls get for the first several months. The pellets are rationed as they get closer to one year of age. This means I feed them twice a day but I am in the barn anyway so it's no big deal. I enjoy being in the barn with the goats & I enjoy cuddling the kids a lot since I take the place of their mom. I will sit in their pen and play with them, cuddle them, play, or just get them used to being touched all over.

Okay, I think I covered everything you asked. I hope this is all helping you figure out how to work the goats in to your life. They are really great and nothing is better than leaning your head against your milker while milking her, or having a kid run up to you and want to snuggle next you, or watch them run and jump sideways while playing.

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Old 11/24/09, 12:20 AM
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Sorry! You are right I was reading something about ND. I knew it was pygmy, guess I still had N dwarfs in my head, hehehe!

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Old 08/04/10, 01:38 PM
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The Kinder Goat Breeders Association does not accept percentage Kinder. We were told by Harvey Considine(well known ADGA judge, now deceased) and Dr. Helen Swartz(former sheep and goat specialist in MO) that if we were to ever reach our conformation and milking goals that 50/50 breeding would be the only way this would happen.

The KGBA is the only registry for Kinder goats. The IDGR is mainly a bookkeeping system. Registrations from the IDGR are not accepted as true registrations by most shows and etc. As stated above KGBA accepts only 50/50 breeding to do other than that would not produce a true Kinder goat.

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Old 08/04/10, 01:51 PM
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I will tell you they sell VERY well - people will drive a long way and pay great money for kids, even with a grade Pygmy buck used on ADGA does. I use the IDGR, too. No complaints about them.
Since there are no Kinder shows, by and large, the IDGR not being accepted at show matters little, and I have been happy with it.

I have a longer waiting list for Kinders - even for kids out of a grade Pygmy buck - than anyother breed I have.

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Old 08/04/10, 02:08 PM
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I think y'all have just decided me on what to breed to my one purebred Nubian doe to this fall. Maybe the two recorded grade Nubian does as well. Now to find a Pygmy buck within reasonable distance of Huntsville AL, or some way to do AI.

-Sonja

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Old 08/04/10, 03:06 PM
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All this info is wonderful...I am planning on breeding my nubian to my pygmy buck as well when she is ready. What would I get if I breed my nubian/alpine to the pygmy?
Glad you are asking all these questions now...I didn't know much when I got my goats and these people have been so awesome to help me....sometimes they make fun of me too! I love it...they all are straight forward and honest as far as I can tell...I spend way too much time on here...welcome

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Old 08/04/10, 07:57 PM
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What and how you breed is your decisions. There are no shows not because of the registry but because breeders do not want to work getting shows started in there areas. Registry do not start shows, it takes lots of hard work by breeders.

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Old 08/05/10, 09:07 AM
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I am not posting here to try and tell you how to breed goats or choose a registry. I am here because I have been breeding Kinder goats for almost 20 years. It was never my intent to raise the most Kinder goats in the country but to raise the best possible Kinder goat. I do not raise this wonderful little goat just to sell goats.

I have spent many hours and dollars on my breeding program. I have concentrated on my Kinder does milking well and they have with two does who made their stars in one-day milk testing. Kinder does do this with the same standards and rules of the ADGA does.

As long as Harvey Considine was living, he came here every year to evaluate my herd. This was my yardstick for my breeding program. Thanks to Harvey only champions stand in my barn.

I do not breed Kinder goats for other people to buy my goats then take all my genetics to do whatever they please then call the results a Kinder goat. Keeping the breed pure is an honor to the Kinder goat and to me but starting to change my Kinder into percentage animals and using a registry that does not adhere to the Kinder breeder’s standards is not an honor.

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