cl injection?

[DairyGoatSlave]

whats the name of the thing you can inject into a cl abscess? how does it work?

[cjean]

Are you talking about formaldehyde?

[Alice In TX/MO]

Dispose of the animal with CL abscesses. Treating a few abscesses does not cure the disease, and it will spread.

[DQ]

it is formalin. it will isolate the abcess and help prevent passing the disease. it embalms it really. I would consider it only as a last resort to temporarily attempt to prevent spread of the disease in order to glean kids off of valuable does before culling them. it will not cure the disease. it still will live in the lymphatic system and produce abscesses from time to time.

[DairyGoatSlave]

Thanks!
I know it wont cure, the doe is due to kid soon, I have her isolated and im gona get some kids from her then cull her. Thanks all

[DQ]

sounds like a good plan. kudos for doing the responsible thing!

[LaManchaPaul]

Originally Posted by DairyGoatSlave

Thanks!
I know it wont cure, the doe is due to kid soon, I have her isolated and im gona get some kids from her then cull her. Thanks all

The stress of mating and preggo seems to cause CL lumps to rise. If you are sure that it is CL, then I'd recommend that you get an experienced vet to inject the lump. Check to make sure that there isn't another one right next to the injected one. The formalyn (sp) has to stay inside, as it often pressure shoots back out when the needle is extracted.

Good luck. I hope you get all doelings from her. With CL diseased animals, we actually mean "fatal" cull when we use the word cull.
Best.

[susanne]

formaldehyde is not approved for livestock animals.
much better to have the lump removed as whole and send in for testing.
positive test and then cull (kill)

[LaManchaPaul]

Hey, on second thought, Susanne has a better idea. I just don't know anyone who has done that, but it would get the gouey off your farm.

[angelsprite]

You can use the formaline injections. I've seen the sites and that appears to be a simple remedy, but I would hesitate to put it into my goat. Since CL is a soil inhabitant, it is carried by deer, people, and many other species, including horses, it is useless to think that culling will prevent other herdmates from contracting the disease.
CL is another one of those pyogenic bacteria that any goat owner will likely have to deal with eventually. There are more than 1500 pyogenic bacteria that are all around the goats all the time. Abscesses are going to happen because goats have to live outside and they don't shower everyday. It's as simple as that.
So, since CL is known to be communicable to humans, it's important to use proper proceedures when dealing with ANY abscesses. Some might be CL. Most abscesses in goats are caused by any one of those other 1500 pyogenic bacteria. But, since you would have to test the contents of the abscess (and that costs money) in order to know what bacteria it was, it's always best to wear gloves, long sleeves, long pants, and that should be clothing you can toss in the washer with a little clorox in the wash. Mud boots are great. It's a good idea to get a set of protective glasses to wear, in case of splatter. And keep your mouth closed.
Just lance the abscess when it's ready, suck out all the nasty pus with a syringe, clean it liberally with clorox diluted with water (about 1 part clorox for 10 parts water) then put neosporin or a triple antibiotic into a syringe and fill the abscess with that. Cut a piece of gauze pad (a 2x2 or 4x4) and fold that strip small enough to fit in the abscess. Soak it in clorox or iodine, and pack the abscess. That will stop any drainage and the abscess will heal in a week. Once the pus is gone, the animal is no longer spreading any bacteria. Because abscesses can be multiple chambered, some areas may open after you've drained it. In order to reduce the shedding of bacteria, packing for 3 or 4 days, or until the abscess is too shallow to pack, is a good idea.
These abscesses ARE painful. Many goat websites say they are not painful, but that is wishful thinking. You will need someone to hold the goat firmly (hopefully it has horns) while you treat it. Be kind. These abscesses sting a goat like fire.
Good luck with your goat. You don't have to get rid of it and you don't have to feel bad about it. This is part of nature. Anyone who wants to keep animals will have to deal with some parts of the natural world that we wouldn't otherwise invite into our lives. The only way to avoid abscesses on goats is to avoid owning goats.
You should pasturize that goat's milk from now on. I pasturize EVERY goat's milk, even though my goats appear to be very healthy. I just don't take any chances since any goat can carry CL without ever having an abscess. That's another reason culling isn't really a good option. You can cull and repopulate a hundred times and lose thousands of dollars, but each and every time you repopulate, you are probably getting carriers, and unless you are testing the contents of abscesses, you wouldn't know whether you had those carriers. There are no reliable tests without actual puss from an abscess extracted at the time the abscess is lanced so that the bacteria is visable under a microscope.

[susanne]

paul
vicki has done is in the past. i'm sure she will explain

animals with external abscess have very often internal abscess as well. you just can not see them and they still infect other animals.

[angelsprite]

Susan et al,
Goats with internal abscesses generally become debilitated. It gets pretty obvious after the animal's ribs and hip bones begin to show and they don't improve despite increased feeding. Systemic antibiotic injections of certain antibiotics might help, even in the case of CL, if given for 30 days and then followed by another antibiotic for another 30 days, but it doesn't always help. There is no such thing as "always" in medicine, but Naxel is used regularly in CL horses to treat internal abscesses, with good results. Gentamycine is also of theraputic value against pyogenic bacteria. Those antibiotics ought to handle most of the other pyogenics too, so it's something people can try.
Usually when a goat has external abscesses, they don't have internal ones, but that isn't always true either.
Internal abscesses will only be infectious to herdmates if they are found in the nasal passages, bowels, or urinary tract, those areas that allow the puss to exit the body through the normal passage of body fluids.
For a goat that is in good general health otherwise, packing the abscess is enough to prevent contamination and transmission, but it's a good idea to isolate the animal for a few days, until the owner can see that the abscess is healing and other chambers are not opening.
I added this post on for general information, to help anyone dealing with abscesses of unknown etiology. See post below for method of packing abscesses.
Remember that goat raisers are advised to cull goats with any medical problems simply because goats are considered to be an inexpensive animal to replace. Cows and horses are NOT culled for CL. So, it's really up to the goat raiser to decide whether their goat is valuable enough to bother treating a nasty abscess. Since these abscesses require serious intestinal fortitude to deal with, choosing formaline injections or culling may be the best option for many producers.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

It's a very meat goat herd idea to try to contain a communicable disease in your herd Sprite. I have had goats for 23 years, I have had 2 does positive for CL, they were part of the commercial dairy for 8 years, we never had an abcess pass to another doe by cutting out the abscess whole, this way we not only could test it (UC Davis) but we also had no pus from the sliced and diced abscess to deal with, a clean scar with stitches. In all those years since putting down the last of the commercial herd, we have never had another abcess of any kind, if abscess was normal I am sure my goats would have had one abscess? Mine to get bathed and shaved, perhaps thats why

In dairy goats CL or CAE will put you out of business...it's my job to make sure no new people buy dairy goats from anybody with your way of thinking. Thankfully I have a forum full of like minded people who frequent lists to make sure meat goat management doesn't hurt dairy herds bottom lines. This will come back to haunt the meat goat producers as communicable disease will not be tolerated with NAIS. It will then also stop anyone who vaccinates for it from exporting since it makes you positive on blood test.

I do think this shows how different people can mange disease on their farms, perhaps different goals. My vet is very much of your way of thinking....Dang Vicki it's just little Corny...as I faint. And I wouldn't buy goats from her either Vicki

[angelsprite]

Vicky,
Goodness, where to begin.
First, I agree that removal of the entire abscess is the optimal solution. It's not difficult and it contains the infection, so it's the best choice if the goat owner can get it done.

I understand that having many years of experience in goats is a valuable commodity. I also consider my education and experience in Public Health, Emerging Infectious Disease, Microbiology, and Viral Genetics to be of some value, since I paid quite a bit to obtain it.

I'm sure your goats are very well taken care of. I'm also sure that you will see an abscess of some kind eventually, no matter what you do. That's because your goats must live outside in the world. Flies land on them. CL bacteria and other pyogenic organisms, including viral pyogenics, have been isolated on the feet and abdomens of flies in large enough numbers to spread disease. Your goats eat grass and hay that is probably not always grown on deer proof fields. Rabbits, mice, and birds probably exist in some areas where your goats are, or their grass and hay grow. Did you know that some bird species carry CL? You have soil, so you have soil resident bacteria. And you touch money, then you touch your goats. There are just too many sources of these bacteria to isolate goats from them. I can assure you that you have some carriers of a variety of interstitial bacteria and viruses in your herd, regardless of how invisable they are, and isn't it wonderful that your goats don't show it. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It means they are resisting those organisms.

Repopulating your herd has been your solution to the problems you faced in the past and I'm glad to hear it's working out for you. But, all producers may not choose the same path because every producer doesn't have the same finances, the same goals in production, and the same emotional attatchment or detatchment to or from their animals. Other producers may live in different parts of the country where different disorders may be of concern. Everyone has to care for their goats as they see fit in their particular circumstances and with their available resources. It really is no one else's business how they do that, which is why your vet isn't likely to go out and tell everyone in your neighborhood about whatever problems he has to solve for you that makes you call him "my vet". I assume he had to solve a problem for you as recently as the last two weeks, or he could have no opinion on my posts, because I wasn't posting here before then. I hope your goat or goats that needed to see Your Vet will be just fine.

When you say, "People who think like me..." you assume that your thinking is "correct" and that your way of thinking is the only "correct" thinking. That is called "political correctness" and it's simply a means of modifying the behavior of others to conform to some common idea, usually based on limited information delivered in a manner that makes a person feel superior to others as having some specialized knowledge. That gives the person trying to convince others confidence to speak with "authority" so that others will listen and unquestioningly adopt that opinion. It's Stanley Milgrim's experiment going on daily. "The experiment must continue." That method of manipulation limits the rational, logical analysis of information so that people who "only know what they've heard" will operate based on what you want them to hear.

The trouble with all that in medicine of any kind is in the consequences. In medicine, whether it's veterinary or human, there are people and lives and money at stake and a good analysis of all the known information can be important. Instead of comparing the two paradigms of Breeding Resistent Goats vs Culling To Remove Infection From A Herd, there is an invitation to a tit for tat.

I'm not really interested in the tit for tat, so I'll just state my position with regard to the two diseases mentioned. People who breed goats that resist disease are doing more to increase the health of the goats they sell and to protect their buyers than people who breed goats that are so delicate, they die of every passing ailment. Anytime you cull your survivors, you are selecting for a more delicate goat and usually a more virulent strain of the disease. Much of the new research is focused on breeding goats that resist parasites and disease, including CL and CAE. I only hope there are a few independent goat raisers who consider breeding for good health to be an imperative because otherwise the corporate producers will outcompete them by attrition as the corporate goats stop being culled and stop dropping dead and the independent producers' goats continue being culled and continue dropping dead.

If you do a little research, you will find that the wider world has moved on, leaving behind the ideas of the past as medical understanding of disease transmission, progression, genetics, and evolution has increased.

If you are looking for like-minded people, it's always best to look in the mirror. Most people have their own ideas, even if they don't tell you what they are. I always find it strange how some people consider conformity to be verification of what they believe. Especially when their ideas should not be based on a belief system, but on research.

It sounds to me like your vet has as many years of experience as you do. The veterinarian I choose to consult when I need to (a close friend) also has many years of experience, is a noted author, and works for an international goat research facility. He does lecture tours to explain the results of different studies to goat raisers around the nation. I wonder how many people on the forum here know that such a facility exists, that their taxes pay for grant money for research to gain knowledge, and that they can obtain that information for free by making a phone call. Much of that information is also available on the web for free, so it isn't necessary to conform to ideas that were popular before Watson and Crick discovered the structure of DNA. That's why research is ongoing. To learn NEW things that can help producers to minimize economic losses by improving the health of their herds.

I'm really glad you wouldn't buy a goat from me, because I have sold all the ones I had for sale and I have a waiting list. People around here are more than a little impressed that my goats didn't all die off during the drought when all the long time producers around here were losing whole herds to scours and heat prostration.
You assume that I am raising meat goats, but that assumption is incorrect. I am selectively breeding to develop an all purpose goat, basically a fiber producing dairy goat that will also have some meat on the bone, but if I can't get the meat, it doesn't matter because we've got the milk. I have one doe that has udders like a cow and produces nearly two gallons at one milking.
Many of the producers around me are meat breeders, but they aren't averse to mixing in some dairy goat blood to get some of the hardiness my goats possess. Word spread fast after the die-offs that I didn't lose a single one and I'm breeding some exceptionally large goats.

You are entitled to your opinion, though you might not want to try to speak for everyone else on the forum. It's more than a little embarrassing that the only people who seem to jump right out there and try to tell everyone else what they should "...think like..." are always in Texas. I'm a native Texan and an Aggie and I am wondering how the rugged individualism of the people of this state turned into this "you have to think like me" stuff. It's a constant on the forums and it always takes away from the thread and the person needing help and seeking information.
I confess, I'm not much good at diplomacy. I know I should be more patient. I'm working on it.

[LaManchaPaul]

Angel,
I couldn’t disagree more with your writings, or your general position on CL. My experience and first-hand knowledge of other herds cringes with your posts.

You said, “Once the pus is gone, the animal is no longer spreading any bacteria.” Telling new people to goats such baloney is unethical. There are often internal lumps that pass exude into the environment perpetrating a controllable disease.

You said, “You don't have to get rid of it [+goat] and you don't have to feel bad about it. This is part of nature.” A goatherder with a CL lump doesn’t have to get rid of that goat, but each goat in the herd is newly susceptible to this awful disease.

You said, “to gain knowledge, and that they can obtain that information for free by making a phone call. Much of that information is also available on the web for free,”
Protocol is to give the number and website.
Respectfully,

[Ken in Maine]

angelsprite:
Very well said!

You are preaching education and reason while others here are trying to make themselves "expert" by fear mongering.

Ignorance is bliss... and there are some very blissful people here.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Vicki is the long term expert here. Real world experience. Decades of it. Show results. Healthy goats. More posts on the board. Mentor of many. Her posts include her real name and website.

Citing research and experience and encouraging safe and healthy practices in one's goat herd is hardly fear mongering.

You might want to read this paper on Vicki's website. It's written by the extension veterinarian at UC Davis.

http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/disease_pdf...phadenitis.pdf

[Ken in Maine]

It is stated that " Vicki is THE (emphasis mine) long term expert here" but she is not the ONLY (again emphasis mine) expert here. I have been in the goat business for over 21 years... bred and raised over a thousand goats... Conduct Goat School twice a year where people from all over the country PAY to attend an educational and informative two day session of goat husbandry.

My wife has written and revised a goat care book that has sold many hundreds of copies.

Raised countless numbers of healthy goats and been featured in Hobby Farms Magazine as well as The Goat Rancher and Meat Goat Monthly and on the cover of The Boer Goat magazine (the official publication of the American Boer Goat Association) and have written articles for the former USBGA publication.

When people start talking about the only way to deal with CL is to kill the animal... that is fear mongering. There is an histeria on these forums perpetuated by a small number of people that this is a disease that will bring ruin to the goat industry.

If that were true why is it not required to be tested for when transporting goats across state lines?

It is my opinion that angelsprite was the person citing research and expereience as well as encouraging safe and healthy practices.

The transmission of CL is unknown and unproven... The idea of killing every goat that has an abscess is ridiculous!

[Alice In TX/MO]

It's an opinion. Based on experience.

If you want to play word games, go right ahead. I won't bite.

NO testing is required when crossing state lines. I do this regularly twice a year. All you have to do is get a health certificate and a totally meaningless Scrapies tag. It's an expensive farce.

NOBODY said kill every goat with any kind of abscess. There are some of us on the board who don't want CL positive goats in our herds, and we won't sell one who is CL positive. That's responsible goat ownership.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

[DQ]

from my understanding proper use of formalin prevents contamination of the enviroment just as well as excising it would. never done it myself but I would consider it as a short term solution. purposely draining the abcess and trying to clean it seems to have much more potential to spread the disease in comparison to either completely removing the abcess or "embalming" it. I think I could handle injecting the formalin more sanitarily then I could trying to excise the whole abcess but it would have to be a very special doe for me to bother because abscesses in my goats is not 'part of having them'. If you think having abcesses in your goats is "part of life with goats" maybe you should look into why your goats are always sick.

I will trust the people who don't have sick goats. seems logical. by saying 'it is normal' you are telling me you have sick goats and it is normal for you and fancy education or not I don't want your sick goats! and quite frankly I am disturbed that you may be selling them to unsuspecting buyers and passing it around.

I disagree that cl is just a fact of life with goats. and preventing disease isn't neccesarily breeding for weak goats. would we say the same about treating tuberculosis or johnes? of course not. communicable disease that seriously affects the health and production capability of the animal can and should be treated if possible and in the case of a disease that cannot be cured culling is appropriate.

it can be dealt with. and it can, if not be totally eradicated due to alternate hosts in the environment, at least have the incidence of disease drastically lessened through treatment until culling. animals have been culled for centuries for a variety of reasons including chronic disease. why is it so bad to cull for this? why would you keep chronically sick animals?