Equines with goats for worm management.

[CheerfulMom4]

A few years ago we had a problem with worms and I lost a few of my goats before we figured out what the problem was.

We are in a much better place now, my goats are all shiny and healthy and I really pay attention to details now that were overlooked before.
One thing that I read when I was learning about worm management was that it was good to graze goats on the same pasture as an equine or a cow.
Ecspecially if you couldn't rotate pastures because the equine is a "dead end" for the goat worms. Basically the horse would act as a worm vacuum.

We have a very old gelding that is my MIL's but lives with us and he has been running with my goats. His health is bad though (always has been, he was a rescue) and she is talking about the fact that he may not be here this winter. We just aren't sure he's going to make it. On top of the fact that we will miss him like crazy. I'm wondering if I need to look for something to put in with my goats. By something I mean another horse or a donkey.

I do love horses but it wouldn't be a bad thing if we didn't have to buy so much hay. Hay is a pain for us because we don't have a very big place to store it and we have to get it constantly. Obviously if it was just my goats I would need quite a bit less hay then with a horse too.

I've thought of getting a mini possibly but I was wondering first if you all thought it made a significant difference. If we did end up with a horse it would have plenty of attention and we got a larger horse it would be ridden too. That would be a perk but I don't think it would be worth it unless it really did help out with keeping the worms in check with my goats.

Any opinions? Do you think it's worth it or is the idea of keeping an equine with that goats overrated?

[CheerfulMom4]

Just to show you what I'm talking about, I copied this. Although I would use a horse or donkey, not a cow.

From:
http://www.extension.org/pages/Goat_Pasture_Management


Mixed/Alternate Livestock Species Grazing
For the most part, each livestock species harbors its own parasite fauna, except that sheep and goats have the same parasites. Only one worm species is known to be found in essentially all livestock species and that is Trichostrongylus axei, a minor abomasal worm that is of little concern. If practical, cattle and goats can be grazed together where each consumes the parasites of the other, which, in turn, reduces available infective larvae for the preferred host species. If co-grazing is not preferred, cattle and goats can be grazing alternately on the same pastures. Again, each consumes the others parasites and when returned to the same pasture, available infective larvae have been reduced. Both livestock species should gain from this over time. The one situation that requires some care with this strategy is, the presence of young calves. Calves can become infected with H. contortus, but problems in the calves should still be much less than those in the goats.

[Alice In TX/MO]

I don't think it's a significant impact. You could argue that because the horses graze the grass lower, that the goat worm larvae are more accessible to the goats.

Save your hay money for goat feed. :-)

[pookshollow]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I don't think it's a significant impact. You could argue that because the horses graze the grass lower, that the goat worm larvae are more accessible to the goats.

Save your hay money for goat feed. :-)

We have six horses and about 40 goats, on three pastures. The horses get rotated into a new pasture every 2-3 weeks and the goats roam where they will. In my observation, the goats don't graze the short grass that the horses prefer. They eat the weeds and the long, coarse grass where the horses leave their droppings. I've also noticed that they'll go to the same area for a few days in a row, then switch to a different pasture/area.

I must say my pastures look so much better with the horses/goats than with just one species grazing.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

This is going to be such a regional question. Here I don't want my pastures cropped short, pretty and pictuesque, a grazed short pasture only brings worms, eggs and larve of worms and cocci up closer to where the goats eat. Right now my pastures are from calf to above knee high on me,,, a very good thing.

If you could somehow find someone local who wanted to graze pastures you already have with your goats, or after you goats in some sort of rotation that would be fine, but to then have to raise a hayburner all winter on purchased hay...no way. Unless you get pleasure from the horse in riding etc...or it pulls in wood out of the woods, have a horse for worm management, it would be so much cheaper to buy wormer! Horses are a bigger money pit on the farm than pet goats are Vicki

[CheerfulMom4]

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate you all taking the time to respond.

I'm in NE PA. I have noticed that when the horse is separated from the goats the goat pasture always grows a lot of clover. He's only been able to get to their side for about a week and it's almost chewed down. Is it better to leave the clover?

[Alice In TX/MO]

My goats have never cared for clover. As you said above, goats are browsers and horses are grazers. They aren't eating the same things if they have their preferences.

[CheerfulMom4]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

My goats have never cared for clover. As you said above, goats are browsers and horses are grazers. They aren't eating the same things if they have their preferences.

Right so....since my goats aren't eating the clover anyway and the worm larvae are closer to the ground maybe they aren't really picking up the larvae anyway so I'm just being paranoid.
If the larvae was on the ground closer to the clover, the horse would clean up what was on the clover but am I right in thinking that as long as my goats aren't eating it in the clover it's not really affecting them anyway?
Sorry for being dense, I'm just trying to get this to make sense to myself.

At the time we had the big worm problem my goats ate their hay on the ground in the same place everyday. Now we move the hay around and it's not on the ground. That probably makes a HUGE difference in how much they are picking up. Does that sound right to everyone else?

[Alice In TX/MO]

The worm larvae go up about four inches when the dew is on the leaves. If the goats have enough browse, they eat UP. That is much more significant than the presence of other forage/grass eaters.

Not feeding on the ground is very important, too, so it's good you aren't feeding hay on the ground. Also, be sure they don't put their feet in the feeders or on the hay.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Goats on pasture will eat the tops of the seeds when grass is mature. With horses or cows on pasture, especially improved pastures, there is no tall grass left, it is cropped short this time of year. All around us is mown short grass my horses and cattle. My goat pasture is rich and lush, because my goats have no interest in the grass until it seeds, about 2 feet tall, then they will eat the tops. IF you watch them and they do have their head way down it's to eat comfrey or rape or another seeded crop that we put down or weeds.

Worms eggs and larve float up with the dew and the deapth of the puddles in the pasture, so you can see why a short cropped pasture is simply death to goats.

Most of the multispieces talk for parasites comes with putting horses or cattle AFTER the goats, no before...unless you don't care about the goats Vicki

[mem]

Grazing horses and goats together WILL benefit each in terms of parasite control, as well as helping maintian a healthy pasture. (although too many horses can ruin a pasture quickly). The horses will eat the new grass, and the goats will clean up the weeds and old, mature grass. Also, at least in this part of the world, a closely mown pasture is actually a form of parasite control. The hot sun and its ultraviolet rays will kill the larvae and eggs that are out on the pasture. This is also why it is recommended that horse pastures be dragged regularly, so the eggs and larvae are exposed to the sun.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

The hot sun and its ultraviolet rays will kill the larvae and eggs that are out on the pasture.
.....................

Unless where you live is Arid, the sun kills nothing. Texas A&M has this information on the myths of pasture rotation and our tropical weather. And since they are in San Angelo and Edwards Plateau it's probably pretty close to your weather, where mine down near Houston is more tropical due to being closer to the gulf. The only thing that kills parasites that will kill your goats...H. controtus here, not much else besides cocci is even a problem for us, is deep freeze which we haven't had in about 8 to 10 years, and arid conditions, which there is no such thing as. I wear rubber shoes to my barn day and night, because my tennis shoes would be soaked in our yard grass, that is how much moisture we get each day. Worm larve and eggs not only overwinter in our pastures but our barns and in our goats. Why the brush hog is not allowed near my goat pastures, and luckily most of my land is wooded, so we aren't talking about alot of pasture area. Vicki

[gina kay]

Vicki, I'm northwest of Houston, in Bellville (Austin County), and I was wondering if the severe drought we had all summer would've helped kill the larvae. Everything in the pasture is eaten/scorched down to the sandy soil (except weeds no one will eat). I've been worming pretty regularly and they share a pasture with a donkey and occasionally a horse. How many weeks apart should the goats be wormed? I've been doing it about every 3 mos.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

As soon as the rain comes, the grass will sprout, it will come up and if the goats eat it short, they will consume all the eggs and larve under the soil. Nobody can tell you how often to worm, if you dont' fecal you don't know what worms you have, you don't know what kind of resistance you have. The only secret bullet with all of this living in the south is to copper bolus, keep your girls off mowed pastures, which for you is going to mean no access until they are higher than the puddles.

It also depends on what you are worming with. Cydectin, copper bolusing, getting the molassas out, not useing anything galvenized (water pipes, water troughs or feed pans) has decreased my worming to just about scheduled wormings, done tactically for species I know I have. HC, cydectin given this year at kidding and prebreeding only used this year. 10 days after kidding I used Valbazen, a flukecide for Liverflukes it also gets lungworm and tapes, although I don't worry about tapes causing problems in my adults, they do have them, and I didn't want them passing them at shows. I then use Ivermectin Plus when 100 days pregnant as they are being dried up, for Liverflukes and also winter strongides which we rarely see on fecal here. It's still ALOT of worming for someone up north, but down here, it's astoundingly not alot of worming at all when you live with no freeze on soil that has had goats for 23 years on it. And you can count the deep freezes on this soil on one hand in all those years.

I do monthly weight, anemia and fecal checks though. Vicki