Lost a goat

[rabbitpatch]

I'm new to goats so I'll be reading this board quite a bit, but I thought I would ask for ideas about what happened recently.

I bought a dairy goat back in the spring. The person who sold her to me (actually it was a trade for hay and some chickens) said she was young. She had two kids still on her that were old enough to wean. He said they were her first kids.

I brought her home and taught myself to milk. She was very sweet and patient with me...she didn't like being milked but she learned to tolerate it -- especially if food was involved! LOL She never gave over a pint a day though and when that started to slack off, I let her dry up.

At the time, my mom had some pygmy goats that my dairy goat was pastured with. My mom decided to sell hers, so mine was left by herself (although she had some chickens and a puppy to play with). She never seemed to eat as much as one would expect after the pygmy goats left, but she seemed fine so I didn't worry. Then last Saturday I found diarrhea. Being new to all of this and not knowing much about goat diarrhea, I called a local feed store to ask if they had anything I could give her. They close early on Saturdays, so I didn't really have time to look elsewhere for advise if I was going to get any medicine that day and they have always been very helpful about other things. When I told him what I wanted, he said "hold on, let me ask my vet" and then went away for a minute. He came back and asked me a few questions and relayed my answer to the "vet" and said I needed to get some Cordid. Now, I don't know if he was really asking a vet, but he was obviously asking someone who sounded like they knew what they were talking about, so I took their advice in good faith and went to get the Cordid.

I followed the directions on the label and treated her for the recommended 5 days. I also gave her electrolytes every day along with Probios and B-12 on 4 of the 5 days. When it didn't seem to be helping by day 4, I looked elsewhere for advice and decided to deworm her again and gave her a CDT shot. I don't know if she needed the CDT shot but I had read that it could help if she needed it, and wouldn't hurt her if she didn't. I dewormed her with ivomec paste....3 times the dose for a horse for her weight of approx. 80 lbs.

I gave the shot and dewormer on Wednesday and Thursday morning she seemed a little better. She was nibbling at food and making what I call "happy goat noises" when I went to check on her before work. Late yesterday (Thursday) evening when I checked on her again however, she looked worse than I had ever seen her and then she died sometime in the night last night.

I know I probably made some mistakes but, like I said, I'm new at this and I would like to learn from my mistakes. We really don't have any local vets that know diddly about goats, so all I can do is ask for advice from other goat owners. Any knowledge you all can share would be greatly appreciated.

[nehimama]

I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't offer much insight to the situation, but the first thought I had was to wonder if she went downhill because she was terribly lonely with the other goats gone? Goats really do need other goats, IMO. Again, so sorry for your loss. It sounds like you did all you could.

NeHi

[Cannon_Farms]

What did you deworm her with this time and before this time?
Grown goats normally dont need coccidia meds, so most likely she getting the runs from something else.
Any stumbling or trembles?

[Cheryl aka JM]

As the others said I have no idea what killed her~ but I have a clue that might be helpfull next time. Goats require 2 to 3 times the dosages listed on the label of most wormers. So you may have been giving the right meds but just not enough of them to take care of the problem. Next goat go here:
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm

To get dose info on the wormers.

I'm sorry you lost your girl.

[goatkid]

She was probably lonely for other goats, which stressed her. The stress could have brought on a worm burden or possibly cocci, or she could have eaten something toxic. Pneumonia can sometimes cause diarreah in goats. Whenever one of my goats is off, I take her temperature. Sometimes we never really know what killed a goat. Sorry for your loss.

[LFmenagerie]

Its really hard to have something wrong and not know what to do or where to go for the correct help. Been there!
Keep reading here. Also, dairygoatinfo.com is a good site for maintainance and care of dairy goats (obviously
sorry for the loss.
Pam

[DQ]

I'm sorry you lost her. but you will walk away with some knowledge. corid is not used as per label directions in goats. it is used undiluted at much higher levels. what you probably were thinking you need was a cd antitoxin injection and you are correct. any tummy upset might be an indication of acidoses, overeating etc....and result in enterotoxemia. but the cdt shot is a vaccine and won't do any good for an acute problem. 80lbs is pretty light for a full size doe that must be over a year old. I woudl bet that Most likely this doe had compounding problems based on lowered immunity. diahrea isn't a typical symptom of worm overload in goats. cocci or digestive upset for some other reason was most likely the cause of that. most adults can handle cocci but based on the amount of milk she produced and her size I question the does overall health to begin with.

what was she eating? minerals?
did she have a temp?

sick goat check list......

check lower eyelids. if pale worm the goat (preferablywith cydectin)

take temperature. if high this indicates an infection and need for antibiotics.

an ill goat with diahrea. use pepto and banamine to protect the gut and stop painful cramping. most people including myself go ahead and treat for cocci.

[Backfourty,MI.]

You also said she had chickens for her companions, did she also have access to there chicken feed? I'm just wondering if she was eating the chicken feed & caused her to have the running poo?

Just trying to help you think of things, so hard to diagnose & we have all learned from our mistakes.
I am so sorry for your loss.

[Cliff]

Ivomec isn't a really useful wormer for goats except as a pre-wormer when one has a huge worm load and you don't want to kill them all off at once with a good wormer. If that's all you used on her she could have died from worms.

[rabbitpatch]

Thanks for all of your replies...I will try to respond to them all in one message so please forgive me if I miss something...

the first thought I had was to wonder if she went downhill because she was terribly lonely with the other goats gone?

See, I had pretty much decided that was at least part of the problem and had decided to get another goat. When she was feeling better yesterday morning, I thought it would be okay to go ahead an pick up the one I had been looking at, so I did. Now, unfortunately, I'm down to only 1 goat again :-/

What did you deworm her with this time and before this time?

While she was giving milk, I used DE. After she dried up, I used the ivomec, 3 times the recommended horse dosage, based on her estimated weight.

Any stumbling or trembles?

Nope, none at all. She acted normal until this last week, and she never stumbled or acted like she had any trouble walking. Just became very weak toward the last few days.

The stress could have brought on a worm burden or possibly cocci, or she could have eaten something toxic. Pneumonia can sometimes cause diarreah in goats.

I guess it's always possible she ate something toxic, but I have never seen anything suspect in her pasture. Most of the nearby trees are maple, red bud, and pine. As for the pneumonia, I can't say for certain because I didn't know to check for that at the time, but she did have a cough yesterday.

corid is not used as per label directions in goats. it is used undiluted at much higher levels. what you probably were thinking you need was a cd antitoxin injection and you are correct. any tummy upset might be an indication of acidoses, overeating etc....and result in enterotoxemia. but the cdt shot is a vaccine and won't do any good for an acute problem.

That's good to know about the Cordid. Where can I find the correct dosage for goats? The one goat I have now is just a kid...so would be nice to know how much to use if I should need it for him.

I did not realize there were two different shots. Tractor Supply is where I bought the CDT shot and that is all they have. Co-op was already closed for the day, but I can check there to see if they carry it, for future reference.

80lbs is pretty light for a full size doe that must be over a year old. I woudl bet that Most likely this doe had compounding problems based on lowered immunity. diahrea isn't a typical symptom of worm overload in goats. cocci or digestive upset for some other reason was most likely the cause of that. most adults can handle cocci but based on the amount of milk she produced and her size I question the does overall health to begin with.

80 lbs was her weight at the time...she had lost quite a bit. When she was healthy, we estimated her to be somewhere closer to 120 or so. When I bought her, I chalked the low milk production to stress. Her kids were weaned the day I bought her, and the guy I bought her from had dehorned her using castration bands. One horn was off, but the other was only cut half-way through and quite painful I'm sure. The band was in far enough that I couldn't remove it, but it still took another month for the horn to come off. After that healed, she was a much happier and nicer goat.

what was she eating? minerals?
did she have a temp?

She was mostly eating just pasture with a little grain to supplement. The two roosters in her pasture belonged to my mom and she would occasionally throw some scratch feed to them. The goat always ate whatever the roosters left. I honestly don't know what her temperature was. Since I was doing all I knew to do, I assumed her temperature wouldn't change the treatment. After this learning experience however, I fully intend to purchase a glass thermometer to keep at the barn.

you also said she had chickens for her companions, did she also have access to there chicken feed? I'm just wondering if she was eating the chicken feed & caused her to have the running poo?

It was just the two roosters and they were just getting scratch feed. As I mentioned, she would clean up what they left, but it wasn't much to start with as the roosters spent most of their time eating bugs and were rarely hungry for the scratch feed.

Ivomec isn't a really useful wormer for goats except as a pre-wormer when one has a huge worm load and you don't want to kill them all off at once with a good wormer.

Besides the DE I mentioned, Ivomec IS all I had used, as I was told that was the most effective one to use in this area.

[shelleydar]

I've also been told that Ivomec is the most effective wormer in my area (northern Indiana)

[Cliff]

I'm surprised you guys were told that about the ivomec. Were they talking about it being the best wormer for goats?
I live in middle tn and have never heard that, in fact have heard the opposite is true no matter where you live because of the movement of livestock. Ivermectin has been around for a long time so just about all worms are immune to it is what I've always heard.

[LFmenagerie]

Ivermectin has worked way up here in the northern Mn for the worms that it is labeled to get. But it seems to not work in many states. And there are different wormers for different worms. Gets complicated but hang in there, it will get better when you get this part figured out. So, for future reference for your goat you have now, take a sample of fresh goat pellets (poop) to the vet to see if there is a parasite load or cocci that needs to be fixed. A few weeks after using what you did to get rid of worms, take a sample to the vet again. Then you will know if that wormer workes in your area or not. If you know anyone that has healthy goats in your area you could ask what they use, too. Notice I said Healthy goats.
Some people do their own fecals. I'm not good at it yet so still do the vet thing.
Now about feed.....
All pastures are not equal. Hay is important roughage. Lots of people feed alfalfa hay and/or alfalfa pellets. A good loose mineral (goats can't get enough from a solid block) that is very high in copper. There are different opinions on other feed but alfalfa and minerals are a good start. And then people some leave baking soda in the pen, but so far, I offer it depending on how much they are interested in it cause I don't have a good feeder that they don't dump or stand or poop in, then they wont touch it. Try not to feed on the ground cause they reinfest with worms that way (I know the pasture is ground - but some ground feeding can be avoided with hay feeders and whatnot- especially where they poop alot).
You'll get there. Love up your other goat. He will get lonely without a friend.
Pam

[rabbitpatch]

Thanks for all of the advice! I am looking for a friend for my other goat, so we'll see....

[Cliff]

Well I sure wouldn't take a chance using Ivermectin anywhere.
I think Cydectin subq is considered the best atm, 1cc/100 lbs (injection given under the skin)

[betsy h.]

I use Cydectin injectable sub-cue at the rate of 1ML PER 50LBS.-= as per how Paulette from Tri-Quest Boers did it- works wonderfully. Never had a problem with that dose.

[Minelson]

Originally Posted by Cliff

Well I sure wouldn't take a chance using Ivermectin anywhere.
I think Cydectin subq is considered the best atm, 1cc/100 lbs (injection given under the skin)

Ivermectin still works here in South Dakota

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Minelson

Ivermectin still works here in South Dakota

Do you do fecals to check? Not being snarky at all, just curious.

[shelleydar]

Now you professional goat folks know why we newies get so confused