Nigerian Size question

[Cheryl aka JM]

Really showing my ignorance of breeds and breeding here~ but the only references I can find as far as how big a Nigerian is supposed to be is "large"......thats not helpful to a novice!

So~ I've got two "Nigerian" Does I've obtained in the last several months that I PLANNED to breed to my boar buck when the time came to freshen them. I've seen a lot of references to Nigerian/Boar crosses so I figured that would be fine and my Nigerians while skinnier than my boars are about the same size as far as height and bone structure as my boar does. (The buck is only about 9 months old so he is still smaller than all the does). Well recently I purchased a Nigerian/Saanen cross doe. Before I purchased her the breeder told me she would be smaller than my Nigerians and she would not be able to be bred to my boar buck cuz the babies would be too big. Well........she's definitely bigger than any other goat I own. She's skinny......TOO skinny and I'm working on that....but being SO skinny I can really see her bone structure and all together she is just BIGGER. So now........I'm worried. Can I breed the boar buck to my Nigerians or are they extra small Nigerians? And if they are extra small Nigerians......why are they similar in size (not weight though!) to my Boar Does which are all over a year now (none of the Boar does have ever been bred before~ The two Nigerians and the Nigerian/Saanen cross came to me in milk but I don't know their ages)

Here is a pic of the Nigerian/Saanen cross with one of my Nigerian does so you can see size. I don't have any pics of the Nigerians with the boars~ but they are of similar size and I can get a pic if we need it.

[Cheryl aka JM]

Oh~ I forgot about this pic~ I do have a pic of one of the nigerians in with the boars already. Look BEHIND the dogs~ thats a "Nigerian" (in better weight than the two in the above pic but about the same size as the peachy colored doe in the above pic) with my other does~ 2 "Boars" and one "Boar/kiko cross" all just over a year old but never bred. Does that help with the size references?

[Alice In TX/MO]

Breeding a buck with large breed genetics to a small doe is asking for trouble.

To get Nigerian cross you use a Nigerian buck and large breed does.

Unless you feel like paying for the vet to do cesarean deliveries on your does.

[KimM]

I would absolutely NOT breed a Nigerian doe, purebred or any cross, to a Boer buck no matter her frame size. I won't even breed my smaller Nigerian does to a larger Nigerian buck for their first freshening. Even if she could have them without problems, I seriously doubt she'd be able to adequately feed the kid or kids, especially as a first freshener.
I sure hope you won't breed her to your Boer.

[Cheryl aka JM]

Well~ NONE of the Dairy does are first freshners~ only the Boar does are. And I'm not really interested in having cesareans done......which is why I started trying to figure out how big a Nigerian should be and considering IF my boar buck was a good idea or not.

Thanks for the information. I was sure I was missing something in this Nigerian/boar cross business but for some reason it just didn't connect that the buck has to be the Nigerian. Makes sense now that it's mentioned but for some reason I was too busy focusing on "are my does too small" rather than coming at it the other direction with "my buck will be too big".

I guess now I need to start considering how to get my does bred this year. I hadn't really thought about it before but I guess I need a smaller buck. Wonder if I can find one to borrow......I don't really want to keep two bucks.

[dosthouhavemilk]

Neither doe in the first picture is a Nigerian. Nigerians are a very small breed with erect ears. Kim's avatar is a picture of a Nigerian Dwarf and her website is full of very good examples of Nigerians. The height Limit for Nigerian bucks is 23.5 inches and does is 22.5 inches. This means, if they are taller than this, they do not fit the Breed standard for ADGA. I do not know the height limits for the other registries, sorry. But I am sure they would be similar, if not identical. I've seen a beautiful buck that just barely falls under the height guideline and I wouldn't dream of breeding a doe that small to a Boer buck....and I've bred Pygmy crosses to a Boer cross buck. She was very seasoned (8 at the time) and well over the height limit for most Pygmies and her build was not breed standard. It isn't something I suggest.
Are you sure you weren't sold "Nubians." Boer/Nubian crosses are very popular because the Nubian influence increases milk without changing the basic breed characteristics that much (except to add more dairy refinement).
The doe in the first picture appears to be a Nubian cross. Even the "MiniSaanen" does not look lik a MiniSaanen. A Nigerian Dwarf bred to a Saanen doe should throw erect ears, as that is what both breeds have. The first generation cross of a Minibreed isn't generally going to be that much smaller in size than their larger counterparts. A Mini"whatever" is typically a cross of a Nigerian Dwarf buck over a "whatever" breed doe. Though the other occurs on ocassion. It just is not encouraged.

I think this is a case where you have been misled as to what you were sold.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Nigerian dwarf doe pics
http://www.newmoonnigerians.com/

[Cheryl aka JM]

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

I think this is a case where you have been misled as to what you were sold.

I THINK I'm an idiot who didn't get enough sleep last night or coffee this morning!

YOU are correct! NUBIAN! DUH!!!!
(and my bit of a grump is showing in my previous post too~ ignore the snippy part~ I'll have another cup of coffee and remember I"M the one who doesn't know what she's doing here!)

Okay~ so in my first post EVERYWHERE it says "Nigerian" insert "the idiot meant Nubian" there please! LOL!

Now~ this may be a little complicated to understand~ but I don't KNOW what the breeding on any of those girls is~

The white one I bought as a NUBIAN/Saanen cross last weekend from someone who told me she was milking 1/2 gallon a day~ I'm trying to build her UP to 2 cups a day now......so we'll just take some of that with a grain of salt..........

The peachy one I bought with NO INFORMATION at all. She was in milk~ she was pretty and I liked her. I'm GUESSING she is a Nubian.

The tri colored black and white one I bought from a gentleman who supposedly has papers on her claiming she is a full blood registered BOAR. After he figured out he had been ripped off he wanted to sell her and I thought she and her babies were pretty so I traded a Boar doe for her. Looking at her I'm GUESSING she is also a Nubian. I don't have her papers~ I told the man I didn't need them as I didn't believe she was any full blood boar!

Does that make sense now?
And do I still need a new buck?

[dosthouhavemilk]

Whew, I was hoping it was simply the wrong breed mentioned.
You don't need a new buck. Your does should be able to handle a Boer buck just fine. Just ask my many many dairy crossbreed does... lol
The spotted doe in the first picture is not a Fullblood Boer, for sure. She is far too refined to be a Fullblood Boer.
I don't think she is Purebred Nubian either, or if she is, she does not meet breed standards.
Yeah, I just reread your post. I can't see enough of the black and white to have a better idea of her genetic background. OUr monitor is dark so I can't see parts of pictures.

As far as milk production, a doe will drop *slightly* in production when moved to a new home, but not normally that much. She does look like Snubian doe (Saanen/Nubian).

[cjb]

I'm relieved, as well! I kept thinking "WHAT?!"

That said, I would not breed either of those does until they were in MUCH better condition.

[Cheryl aka JM]

THANK YOU! I was sitting here trying to figure out if I could justify another buck and dreading it! I think thats why I was feeling a bit snippy.......I didn't want ONE buck~ but when I tried to use the neighbors buck on my does I got NO breeding so I bought my own buckling and I've been patiently waiting for him to grow up and get to work.......and just when he's almost big enough to get to work here I am thinking I may need another one!......OH the frustration!!

Don't worry CJB~ I don't think my buck is working yet but just in case (and because the white one is still in "quarintine") the two very skinny girls are separated from him and the rest of the herd and I was just trying to figure out where I could move the last girl (the tri color doe) so she wouldn't get bred by him if she hasn't been already.

But if I'm understanding correctly~ my boar buck WILL be okay with the does I have?
(Good Lord I'm really showing my ignorance here~ but I really like my girls~ especially the peachy colored one and don't want to hurt them).

Oh~ and I do have an older pic of the tri colored doe that is SUPPOSEDLY a full blood registered and papered boar.....but I think she is a nubian. She is heavier than this pic shows now and currently in with the buck. I don't think the buck is doing any breeding yet though~

[dosthouhavemilk]

Again, the ears are really too short on her to be all Nubian.
I've seen that when a Nubian and a Boer is crossed. She also does not have the body structure I have seen in Fullblood Boers (though my experience in that area is limited).
In any case, she ought to make for a good momma in the end.

[Cheryl aka JM]

Thank you so much. So sorry for the confusion in naming the breeds.
I know breeding season is coming~ and I'm trying to be prepared. My buck is getting some size on him and I imagine he'll be interested in the girls soon........and when someone told me the Nigerians were too small to breed a boar too......and as you see I got the word Nigerian and Nubian mixed up.......I got nervous that I would accidentally kill my girls.

Thanks so much for the help~ I was sitting here wondering what I was gonna do now....with breeding season almost here and afraid to use the buck I've been raising all these months!

[Backfourty,MI.]

Thank Goodness They weren't Nigerians, I was scared you were really going to breed Nigerian doe's to a boer buck & around here the boer bucks are between 250 to 300 pounds.

It doesn't matter if your girls are pure bred doe's or not since your wanting them for your own meat & milk that's all that matters is how they produce for you.
The 2 doe's in the first picture are really skinny, your right! Have you done fecals on them to make sure they don't have a heavy worm load keeping them from getting to their top form?

[Cheryl aka JM]

I've not done fecals but I've checked their eyes. The peachy colored one did have a heavy worm load~ I've wormed her~ her eyes have pinked up and she is putting on weight. She gets all the browse she wants, 12% protein feed with probiotics sprinkled on it twice a day. Free choice loose goat minerals too.

The white one just came to me this last weekend. The membrane under her eyes is VERY pale like the Peachy one was two months ago. I've wormed her and since she is still in milk and I'm not trying to dry her off she is getting all the browse she wants and 16% protein feed with a fistfull of 25% Calf manna and the probiotics sprinkled on twice a day. Free choice loose goat minerals too.

I'm HOPING to fatten them up enough to consider breeding them a bit later in the season. The buck is not in the pen with them~ and he won't be allowed in there until I'm reasonably confident they can be bred with him successfully. I have 3 fat and sassy boar girls and the tri colored doe to be bred to him this year. I was worried that even if I brought them up to a good body condition they could not be bred to him~ but now I'm feeling a bit better about that now.

[LFmenagerie]

In looking at the tri colored one in the top pic and the lower pic- She looks so much healthier. I'm sure that the other two will look just as nice eventually. I bought a thin doe in milk this spring. I was told as long as she is in milk and milking she wouldn't put weight on but would only put the feed "in the bucket" and so far it is somewhat true. I'm going to try beet pulp next I hear that can help.
Yours look like sweet personality girls. Have fun. And you probably know about CAE, CL, Johnes to watch for.

Pam

[Cheryl aka JM]

I know~ but I've not tested. Here is where I take beating as a bad goat owner I suppose. when I bought my very first goats~ a couple pygmies over a year ago I promptly took them to the vet and asked for CAE, CL and Johnes tests. The vet looked at my blankly for a while and then told me it wasn't necessary unless I planned to show the goats. This is the local farm vet not a small animal vet. So~ I brought them home~ discussed it with my family............

And we don't test. The goats are for personal use. Before we buy a goat we feel all over it's body for lumps or bumps and don't buy if we feel a bump we can't identify. We quarantine new goats away from our main herd for 30 to 60 days at least and watch for symptoms of illness. My neighbor who shares a fence with me also has goats and has not tested for anything (he doesn't even vaccinate, trim feet or offer them minerals).

Frankly~ we are afraid if we tested we would find out something we don't want to know. I seriously consider doing it anyway~ but I don't know how to draw the tests, my vet apparently doesn't know what to do with the tests if I figure out how to draw them, from what I've read a positive or negative test doesn't necessarily mean positive or negative for sure.......and again.......I'm afraid of what I would find out.

[KimM]

Originally Posted by Cheryl aka JM

I THINK I'm an idiot who didn't get enough sleep last night or coffee this morning!

YOU are correct! NUBIAN! DUH!!!!
(and my bit of a grump is showing in my previous post too~ ignore the snippy part~ I'll have another cup of coffee and remember I"M the one who doesn't know what she's doing here!)

Okay~ so in my first post EVERYWHERE it says "Nigerian" insert "the idiot meant Nubian" there please! LOL!

You're not an idiot, we all blunder on here now and then.
Let's both have another cup!
And not trying to be spelling police but it's "BOER" (it actually means peasant or farmer). A "BOAR" is a male pig.

[Cheryl aka JM]

I should have known that. Thanks!