Line Breeding question

[Mary Cody]

I Have a handful of nubian goats. I was told that the new buckling could safely breed back to his mother. That this is called line breeding. Is this right? I wanted to breed my doe back to the bucklings father, but he is now over 3 hours drive away. I love that line, so the buckling might have to do. One breeder has had nubians for 20 years says yes, and another says definitely no. there would be bad birth defects in the babies.

[Cannon_Farms]

Line breeding can be a great tool, or a disaster area, this is about dogs, but the same applies to other species.
These are the laws of line breeding, hopefully it will all post if you have any questions please ask,

BACK CROSSING;
another type of inbreeding which we equate, to the greatest extent, to the stud dog. In back crossing the breeder selects a stud with as few imperfections as possible and of magnificent type, who potently produces excellent progeny.
Basically what the breeder hopes to accomplish is to infuse the entire breeding line with the genetic qualities of the excellent stud. a good bitch who will correct any of the slight failings the male may have , is bred to him and from the ensuing litter the best FEMALE puppy that in appearance is MOST like the sire is selected , kept & and the proper time bred back to the sire . it is generally advised to keep 2 females in case something drastic occurs that eliminated one of the bitches. the second choice bitch then can be used - again after the bitch is whelped the best bitch puppy that mirrors the sires excellence is saved and bred back to her sire when she reaches maturity, this form of incest is continued again & again until a time arrives when the alpha male can no longer reproduce or until physical or psychological debilities become apparent (IF they do) that make it inexpedient to con tine the experiment.
If seems to have acquired much of his virtues from HIS dam, then the initial breeding should be to HER, if the stud dogs sire seems to have lent his most of his fine traits , then the first breeding should be , if possible,and if she fits the breeders needs - to the SISTER of the males SIRE. BY back crossing the genetic worth is consolidated and the germplasm fashioned to a wanted mold. This conformation that you have wright by back crossing will continue to prevail for several generations after the alpha male can no longer produce, if breeding continues within the confines of the line bred family.


OUT CROSSING;

This breeding technique can be considered a counter measure to any kind of line breeding or inbreeding - out cross means that for at LEAST 5 or 6 generations there has been no common ancestry, that no individual app rears more than once in a pedigree.



The only control a breeder can have over a the prodengy of an out cross breeding is if one of the mated pair IS line bred OR inbred, the other partner should be dominant in any needed type or temperament compeations. out cross breeding's generally brings greater vigor and new and needed characteristics to a strain, and usually a lack of prepotency and uniformity in the progeny. It`will help cover up recesses that may be detrimental to the stockthestatement regarding prepotency and uniformity in the progeny doesn't not always follow.

animals of out cross breeding frequently ( not always) indicate a LOWER breeding worth because favorable genetic factors have not been clustered and inheritable material has been dispersed.

perhaps the most important improvement that an out cross breeding can bring to the kennel is its ability to return vitality virility and vigor BACK to a line that may have been weakened due to close breeding's .
Abnormalities congenital ills and abnormalities that have been brought to the surface by line breeding or inbreeding can be arrested corrected or terminated .

BACK MASSING

the aggregation of genetic factors of a specific dog, his name appearing numerous times in the extended generations of a pedigree. the first 3 generations of a pedigree are generally the most important, influencing the progeny to a greater extent than later generations. But when those initial generations indicate no close breeding, allowing various genetic factors to consolidate and affect the young, then the influence of the back massed animal will be felt.
back massing can bring merit as well as flaws to a bloodline, but we can only be cognizant of the cause if we search further back in the animals history.

** also used in breeding is

HETEROSIS ( utilized MOSTLY in agricutual fields and in experimental work with fowl & swine.
it is considered it could become a genetic tool to use in Dog breeding if it has a meritorious application.

[Cannon_Farms]

As you can tell by reading, when done correctly with great care and not for greed its actually a prefered method. Just keep in mind when you double up on good genes you double up on bad ones as well.
The above is an artical that I dont know who wrote it but was sent to me some time ago when I was into showing and breeding dogs.

[Bricheze]

Question, my goats kid from two years ago, was her's and her sires sister this year, one mom had a kid missing a waddle, and the other one had a waddle that was deformed... could this be becuase of the inbreeding?

[Cannon_Farms]

for some reason I can not get what you are asking, the way im reading it is two does had a kid together, maybe I shouldnt be on this thing after my bed time

[DairyGoatSlave]

I dont think thats from the line breeding. Some times the waddles just go a little hay wire. For example I have a kid that has two uneven waddles. As far as deformed, Id like to see a pic because waddles can be diffrent shapes, sizes, and have diffrent placements. Also its not a default on ADGA score card, waddles are nothing
---I have line bred goats, beautiful!!!----

[Bricheze]

By deformed I met that they were really uneven lol

Lemme try and explain Cannon, Abra is twins sisters with Kadabra, Kadabra gave birth to Sully 2 years ago, and then was sire to both Abra and Kadabra this year. Both Abra and Kadabra then had twins, and 1 of each twins had 'off' waddles...

[billooo2]

I would only liinebreed animals if the traits that I wanted were strong points in both animals. By defiiniton, I think that breeding an animal back to one of its parents is called "inbreeding."
If both animals have any faults or defects, they may be magnified by doing this breeding.
I will try to put a link in to an article that I like:
http://members.tripod.com/marge_s_2/...inbreeding.htm

[DairyGoatSlave]

yep, no big deal with teh uneven waddles
In my deffeniton inbreeding is line breeding where something goes wrong

[Bricheze]

Well I need a new sire anyways...I am still trying to get this champion buck!

[Cannon_Farms]

You may try AI to a champion buck, a friend of mine travels all over the US as an insimiator, if i wasnt attached to mick that would be the only way I would go and I wouldnt have a buck here. The second breakdown of the girls makes more sence, and I agree waddles are wacky and thats why I wack em off.
Ive just woke up so I wont address the difference between line and in breeding.

[betsy h.]

The difference between 'linebreeding' and 'inbreeding' is:

Linebreeding is when it worked, and inbreeding is when it didn't. <VBG>!!!

[LaManchaPaul]

Originally Posted by Cannon_Farms

You may try AI to a champion buck, a friend of mine travels all over the US as an insimiator, if i wasnt attached to mick that would be the only way I would go and I wouldnt have a buck here. The second breakdown of the girls makes more sence, and I agree waddles are wacky and thats why I wack em off.
Ive just woke up so I wont address the difference between line and in breeding.

Cannon, are you awake yet?

In the first post a deformed-waddle kid was produced by its mother and the sister of the mother’s sire. It’s very interesting that those two females produced a kid. And then there was another kid. “Question, my goats kid from two years ago, was her's and her sires sister this year, one mom had a kid missing a waddle, and the other one had a waddle that was deformed... could this be becuase of the inbreeding?”


In the second, because Cannon didn’t get it the first time a more complete picture immerges. Abra and Kadabra are sisters. Two years ago, Kadabra gave birth to Sully. And then this year, Kadabra was the dad to Abra and herself. (more interesting than the first post) Then, they both gave birth to twins. “By deformed I met that they were really uneven lol
Lemme try and explain Cannon, Abra is twins sisters with Kadabra, Kadabra gave birth to Sully 2 years ago, and then was sire to both Abra and Kadabra this year. Both Abra and Kadabra then had twins, and 1 of each twins had 'off' waddles...”

Inbreeding is a possibility in both posts.
Paul

[Cheryl aka JM]

It really depends on how many places on the chromosome cause the trait of a "deformed wattle" and if it is a simple recessive trait or a dominant or incomplete dominant trait. I'm not really well informed on genetics~ so don't take this as gospel....but I am interested in genetics so I know just enough to have a theory

given that Abra and Kadabra are full blood sisters (same sire and dam) NOT showing the "deformed wattles" trait and Sully who is a son to Kadabra and a nephew to Abra and who also does not show the phenotype of "deformed wattle".......

Then Sully is bred to both sisters and produces from both girls 50% offspring that do show the phenotype of "deformed wattle"..........

without further breedings to prove of disprove the type of trait it is ........my suspicion at this point would be that the phenotype "deformed wattle" is most likely a simple recessive trait in which the animal in question must be homozygous (having two) for the trait in order for the phenotype to show. In this case IF the trait actually is a simple recessive trait then at least one of Abra and Kadabra's parents had to be homozygous (have two and SHOWING the trait) or heterozygous (only have one gene and not showing the trait) for "Deformed wattle". Both girls carry the trait in the heterozygous condition. Both girls pass on the potential for the trait to 50% of her offspring (meaning that both the girls and 50% of thier offspring are heterozygous for the trait~ carrying the possibility but not showing it). IF the trait is a simple recessive obviously Sully is a het for the trait~ and when bred to his mother and his aunt who are also hets the gene combination would create 25% "Normal" (not het or homozygous for the trait), 25% homozygous (showing the trait) and 50% het (not showing the trait but carrying the potential for it). The percents are just averages~ so it would not be unusual in only 4 offspring to actually get 0 or 2 showing the phenotype as the 25% average is an average of ALL possible offspring.

If you understood that......your probably a little weird like me! If not~ look up a primer on "Punnet squares" and it may make a bit more sence!

[HomegrownAcres]

My personal opinion is that inbreeding should be avoided. Improve a herd by bringing in desirable traits through breeding with unrelated stock.

I bought some goats from a breeder who specialized in selling wethers for show. She had two herds: commercial and show. The commercial herd was the usual mix; the show herd was a collection of what appeared to be clones. Real Children of the Corn stuff. All the little goats looked exactly the same. Good looking, but very creepy.

She admitted that, in order to get the good ones she had to cull twice as many bad ones and routinely medicate the ones she kept. She also kept the show herd in a dry lot and fed them expensive feed, while the commercial herd got to roam the pasture and browse.

This seemed like a pretty unnatural way to breed goats. I wonder which herd was happiest?

Brian
Homegrown Acres
HomegrownAcres.com

[Bricheze]

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

Cannon, are you awake yet?

In the first post a deformed-waddle kid was produced by its mother and the sister of the mother’s sire. It’s very interesting that those two females produced a kid. And then there was another kid. “Question, my goats kid from two years ago, was her's and her sires sister this year, one mom had a kid missing a waddle, and the other one had a waddle that was deformed... could this be becuase of the inbreeding?”


In the second, because Cannon didn’t get it the first time a more complete picture immerges. Abra and Kadabra are sisters. Two years ago, Kadabra gave birth to Sully. And then this year, Kadabra was the dad to Abra and herself. (more interesting than the first post) Then, they both gave birth to twins. “By deformed I met that they were really uneven lol
Lemme try and explain Cannon, Abra is twins sisters with Kadabra, Kadabra gave birth to Sully 2 years ago, and then was sire to both Abra and Kadabra this year. Both Abra and Kadabra then had twins, and 1 of each twins had 'off' waddles...”

Inbreeding is a possibility in both posts.
Paul

LOL! I met That HE (sully) was sire to both does

[Bricheze]

Originally Posted by HomegrownAcres

My personal opinion is that inbreeding should be avoided. Improve a herd by bringing in desirable traits through breeding with unrelated stock.

I bought some goats from a breeder who specialized in selling wethers for show. She had two herds: commercial and show. The commercial herd was the usual mix; the show herd was a collection of what appeared to be clones. Real Children of the Corn stuff. All the little goats looked exactly the same. Good looking, but very creepy.

She admitted that, in order to get the good ones she had to cull twice as many bad ones and routinely medicate the ones she kept. She also kept the show herd in a dry lot and fed them expensive feed, while the commercial herd got to roam the pasture and browse.

This seemed like a pretty unnatural way to breed goats. I wonder which herd was happiest?

Brian
Homegrown Acres
HomegrownAcres.com

My herd has always done much better on natural browse then on expensive feed....

[Bricheze]

Originally Posted by Cheryl aka JM

It really depends on how many places on the chromosome cause the trait of a "deformed wattle" and if it is a simple recessive trait or a dominant or incomplete dominant trait. I'm not really well informed on genetics~ so don't take this as gospel....but I am interested in genetics so I know just enough to have a theory

given that Abra and Kadabra are full blood sisters (same sire and dam) NOT showing the "deformed wattles" trait and Sully who is a son to Kadabra and a nephew to Abra and who also does not show the phenotype of "deformed wattle".......

Then Sully is bred to both sisters and produces from both girls 50% offspring that do show the phenotype of "deformed wattle"..........

without further breedings to prove of disprove the type of trait it is ........my suspicion at this point would be that the phenotype "deformed wattle" is most likely a simple recessive trait in which the animal in question must be homozygous (having two) for the trait in order for the phenotype to show. In this case IF the trait actually is a simple recessive trait then at least one of Abra and Kadabra's parents had to be homozygous (have two and SHOWING the trait) or heterozygous (only have one gene and not showing the trait) for "Deformed wattle". Both girls carry the trait in the heterozygous condition. Both girls pass on the potential for the trait to 50% of her offspring (meaning that both the girls and 50% of thier offspring are heterozygous for the trait~ carrying the possibility but not showing it). IF the trait is a simple recessive obviously Sully is a het for the trait~ and when bred to his mother and his aunt who are also hets the gene combination would create 25% "Normal" (not het or homozygous for the trait), 25% homozygous (showing the trait) and 50% het (not showing the trait but carrying the potential for it). The percents are just averages~ so it would not be unusual in only 4 offspring to actually get 0 or 2 showing the phenotype as the 25% average is an average of ALL possible offspring.

If you understood that......your probably a little weird like me! If not~ look up a primer on "Punnet squares" and it may make a bit more sence!

omg I love gentical stuff too and totally understood, make sense to me lol good thing waddles don't matter... but I do like to play with them

[angelynbelle]

I also resently aquired a herd. I now know that my older does are daughters of my buck and the doelings are their babies. So our sire is their sire and their grandsire, OMG. One has an extra teat and 1 looks like she has an underbite which he also has. What should I do with this buck, cull him or sell him? My daughter wants to show the goats next year so I want to be sure to breed them to a top buck, have to AI I guess, now I need to research all that! My vet said she would teach me, I love her! Need a nitrogen tank though. Any help would be great you all are so helpful, I love learning from all of you.

[billooo2]

Originally Posted by angelynbelle

I also resently aquired a herd. I now know that my older does are daughters of my buck and the doelings are their babies. So our sire is their sire and their grandsire, OMG. One has an extra teat and 1 looks like she has an underbite which he also has. What should I do with this buck, cull him or sell him? My daughter wants to show the goats next year so I want to be sure to breed them to a top buck, have to AI I guess, now I need to research all that! My vet said she would teach me, I love her! Need a nitrogen tank though. Any help would be great you all are so helpful, I love learning from all of you.

I would definitely go for a new buck!!!!!! I am not sure why anyone would wnat to use a buck with an obvious defect, let alone breeding him to his own daughters.
You may want to look for one out of the same bloodlines...but not closely related. I would look for a diffeent breeder.