Strange production issue

[hoofinitnorth]

I bought an experienced ND doe dry in early February. She had last kidded the prior December and was not put on milk test with the rest of the herd for this lactation. The prior owner says she was in with several other does who were happy to feed her kids for her so she just dried up - an opportunistic doe, she says. I wondered what kind of doe could dry up this fast at only 7 weeks fresh. Hmmm...

I bred her after being with me for only a week because her condition was excellent and we need the #s for the milker classes during the show season. All throughout the pregnancy she had little to no udder. It always looked like she was milked out, small and a bit saggy, like an empty balloon. It was always easily visible and healthy, with no signs of mastitis or infection.

About 24 hours before freshening, she started to build a little bit in her udder. When she was ready to freshened this past Sunday evening, I was there to assist. She began pushing and when I went in to investigate, the cervix was not completely dilated. I gently ringed around it to help it open. Despite her very deep appearance, the doe had a healthy, single, 4.3-pound doeling. Hmmm... Yes, I did go in and check for more babies (twice) and there were none. The udder was maybe 1/3 full at the time. I let the doeling nurse and then I milked out the udder and saved the colostrum, hoping to stimulate production. I also used warm, moist compresses with peppermint oil. The doe passed her placenta fine.

All throughout the night the doeling never cried and the doe did not seem to be in distress. She cared for the doeling well but did not seem overly consumed with the kid as sometimes seen in a mom that will care for her kids over herself. She is still in the kidding pen with her single doeling, just to give the doeling a chance to get her feet under her before she goes in with other does. The doe has free choice alfalfa hay, brome/timothy mix hay, barley twice daily (she would get 1# or more twice daily if she'd eat it but now she's not even wanting more than a handful!), and 1/2 ounce dried raspberry leaves. I gave her some salt to help her want to drink water and some mineral mix with baking soda, which she ate readily. All these are foods to which she is accustomed and the only thing new is the brome/timothy mix that we just purchased (she had a different but similar mix offered before), which she really likes. Her primary feed has been alfalfa for a number of months. I tried giving her some alfalfa pellets just to give her something new to try and she only ate a few.

The doe has not been eating and drinking as much as I'd like (barely at all), but she is not completely off her feed as she is still urinating and eliminating normally. Her condition has not changed, her attitude and temperature and respirations are normal, she is moving about normally, and everything seems generally well. I am just not seeing her feed and water go down as I should. I switched out the hay with "fresh" hay Tuesday to see if that would help and it did not, although she wanted the grass hay more than the alfalfa hay (I've seen this a few times now with newly-freshened does).

To help stimulate her appetite, I have been giving her 12cc MFO orally and 12cc Fortified B-Complex orally twice daily. I also started drenching her with 120cc water twice daily, just to wash down the other stuff and be sure she's getting fluids. Last night I switched from 12cc of each of these products to 12cc total Calcium Drench, which is similar and has both items therein. She had Bo-Se and a Copper Bolus at the beginning of the pregnancy but not since (it's time for more of both).

I have been massaging and cleaning her udder with the warm, moist, peppermint oil compresses twice daily and there has been no change to the udder. It never refilled after I milked out the colostrum. There is some milk in it, however, but just a tiny amount. I am sure the doeling is constantly demanding a meal so I won't really know how much is there until I pull the kid for a few hours, but it should definitely not be this small for an experienced star-doe with a single to feed! I know they often produce less for a single, but goodNESS!

As of this morning, her milk still has not come in as it should. She is not congested, there just isn't much milk in there. The udder is soft and well-defined. There is no heat or swelling. Every time I come out to check on them, the doeling is sleeping, playing, or nursing-all normal activities. The doeling is very quiet by nature and I never hear her crying over the monitor as if she's hungry, but her tummy is never full. I have been giving her a bottle of colostrum twice daily since the morning after she was born, just to be sure she is getting enough. It's possible mom is simply producing only enough for baby, but I wonder if she will increase at all as the doeling demands more for growth or if I will end up with a bottle baby or one that I need to graft onto another doe.

The prior owner suggested to someone else that I give a tiny amount of Oxytocin but that is for milk *let down*, not so much for production (the cervix is long since closed, but in VERY small doses that wouldn't be a problem, I'm told). Others have said perhaps I should try some herbs like milk thistle, fennel, fenugreek, something along those lines. I have not tried any of these and I'm not rushing to do so at this point. My local mentors say to keep doing what I'm doing. One suggested adding PenG for a possible hidden, low-grade infection that is upsetting her udder's ability to produce (the udder is often the first thing to show signs of a problem, is her theory). I did add the the recommended 1ml/13# subQ twice daily of PenG last night, thinking it couldn't hurt (and I did go in after the birth). No change this morning, but it's early into the PenG yet.

Is there anything I can do to help this doe produce? Anything obviously missing in my management? My other four senior does are producing 1/2-gallon per day each, my two first-fresheners included.

She has apparently produced in the past as she has earned her dairy stars. The prior owner reports no such similar problems with any doe in her past, but she has a rather large herd and not enough time to keep up on milking all of them. Perhaps this doe is "programmed" from a history of irregular or completely nonexistent milkings. I think her December kids had a reason to go looking elsewhere for milk... If nothing else, local mentors are telling me that if it is not just her, I should chalk it up to her not being on my management long enough before conceiving. If this is true, and if her condition is good in the fall, I may breed her back and try once more. If this happens again, she will go for sale as a pet as I do not want a doe that can't feed her kids or needs extraordinary measures to produce milk as she's intended to do.

I guess I've been lucky that I haven't dealt with this before and the dam and daughter are both healthy, at least from outward appearances.

Ideas, thoughts, similar experiences??

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I have been giving her 12cc MFO orally and 12cc Fortified B-Complex orally twice daily.
........................

You aren't going to fix anything with oral anything, and in fact adding oral products to the rumen makes the does eat less.

Just with the history I would not be letting this doeling nurse, either the dam is a horrible mother and will not let the kids nurse, or she simply has such a poor milk ability that her kids find nourishment elsewhere, neither of which is condusive to raising out a nice doeling out of her.

A uterine infection can cause poor milking ability with no other symptoms, and I would be using Naxcel and not pennicillin.

This would be worrisome if this was a young first freshener, I have had a young FF milk 4 pounds, but subsequent freshenings and now as an 8 year old 8th freshener she milks gangbusters, she did though as a 2nd freshener also. But with this history, I would say she is just a very poor milker. Now if she had this fabulous milky looking udder with no milk, then yes it could be something wrong hormonally etc...but with the history, I would cut my losses with her and her daughter. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

Vicki, I see your concern but I disagree in this case. 24CC of two products twice daily is a pretty minor amount. Plus, B complex given orally stimulates the appetite (a goat will eat literally within minutes of having this drench). MFO is just support to balance her rumen and offer calcium in case she's not getting it (since she's not eating her alfie). Either way, as of last night I went to 12cc total of just one product (Calcium Drench with the b-complex in it). So she's getting less added to her rumen but still not eating more.

I'm stumped, I am just wondering if this is a management issue with this doe or if she's got something going on or if she's just this way. Beautiful doe but she has to produce milk and kids that milk in order to stay here or even go on to another herd as a milker!

The strange part is that I have a daughter out of her from a prior year (I bought from the prior owner). She was dam-raised and was fine, and beautiful to boot. She is not due to freshen for a few more months so I can't tell you if she's going to be the way her mother is right now or not.

The other thing is that her udder must have been bigger at some point. I have seen a few poor pictures of it that show it decent but not huge (apparently not full at the time of the photo, just candids), and the skin itself is loose as if it's been stretched by a prior freshening with a large udder.

I'm just trying to figure out how this doe has a dairy star if she doesn't produce. The star indicate that she must have produced, however minimally, at one point in time.

I have an order of Naxcel coming. PenG works well for us on a number of things but I've not dealt with a uterine infection.

For my breed (ND), I have two first-fresheners this year milking 4 pounds plus starting at 3 weeks fresh and barely falling off now that they are 12 and 16 weeks fresh. They each dam-raised their twins.

Thanks for responding, I definitely have thought through this side of things.

[hoofinitnorth]

Here's an update and some new/more information:

When I checked on her last night she had eaten quite a bit (more like normal). That is good! Not sure if it was the Pen G or just her coming around on her own. Her production has not changed but the doeling's tummy was more full and she did not want to finish her bottle (too full). Both are still healthy as ever and acting totally normally. Mom is definitely feeding baby but I want more milk than just enough to feed the kid if she is going to stay here.

The question about mom being a self-nurser was posed. I do not think that is the case here as I've never seen evidence of it.

I did some more digging on her history. She is 4 years old, 4th freshener but here's the rub, when I evaluated her as a purchase, I only had the ADGA completed lactations summary, which showed 2 other freshenings prior to the one in December and this one now. They only showed moderate production, but I was not concerned, figuring she could improve with different management since I've been able to get some incredible increases numbers out of goats I have purchased from the same herd. Now that the USDA complete summaries are available (and I can get the complete doe page from the testing lab), I have discovered that her first lactation was pretty normal - kept in milk for about 9 months. Her second and third lactations, however, were severely truncated. She was only kept in milk 118 days in the second lactation and the third lactation is the one during which she was dry at 7 weeks (she never had a milk test on this third lactation). *sigh*

It's possible that there were too many successive rebreedings too close together for this young doe to do what she needs to do, but it could have also programmed her to have short, small lactations, as Vicki suggested. Will keep evaluating to see if she will stay for another try or go. Doeling may be grafted onto another doe (a first-freshener who is in labor right now).

I'm glad the USDA data is now available for the NDs... So a word to the wise out there to learn from me: if you are buying a milking doe, check the full doe pages before you buy, don't just rely on the complete lactation summaries that don't show the most recent lactations, more details, etc.

[Laverne]

In a nut shell, antibiotics took my inattentive FF rejecting her kids and me going out there making her stand to nurse her kids every 2-3 hours to accepting her kids and nursing them after 3 WEEKS I think extra vit. E helped also.

[hoofinitnorth]

Just wanted to give an update. As of yesterday, she's a week fresh and doing well. She was absolutely lost without the doeling when I tried to graft the kid onto another newly fresh doe so I gave her another chance. She's taking great care of the doeling so far and
it looks as if she is producing just enough to feed her. I'm not getting more
than a few drops when I strip her out twice daily but the doeling is not hungry
and in fact I've found her with a fully tummy a few times now. No more
supplemental bottles as of right now.

The PenG may have helped and I'm continuing that for the full 10-day course. Not sure if I will see a future freshening like her first or better, so we will evaluate her throughout the rearing and weaning period but may end up re-selling her as a pet.

I got an email from her original breeder and found that this doe's dam had similar issues and was later sold as a pet. *sigh* Would have been nice to know before I bought her, eh? The difference between this doe and her dam, though, was that her dam had kidding issues more than lactation issues (hormonal or cystic?). Her dam did produce at some point, enough to take some really nice udder shots.