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Old 07/16/09, 06:57 AM
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Ivermectin---how often?

We have a goat that we gave some ivermectin (injection) to.....the problem being is that she is very scrawny in the neck area, so there was some diddling to get positioned properly. Hubby held her while I inserted the needle, but I didn't feel the needle inject the fluid. I thought by feel that it wasn't being injected, but when I had a look, it had. (?) At least I think.

I'm still not sure that the fluid was injected into HER for sure though, or if there was some "user error" there. But her fur was dry, the floor was dry.....where did it go? DID it go into her, and I just didn't feel it? I'm not too sure, but I want to be sure she got the dose, so.....how often between times can they be given ivermectin? I'm pretty sure it went in, but then again, I'm willing to redose to be on the safe side so long as there would be no reaction. Is there a time space that should be left between ivermectin doses?

Thanks!

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Old 07/16/09, 07:13 AM
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Ivomec is given orally in goats. Their metabolism is such that it's not utilized well when given by injection, except when given for lice.

Do a fecal exam to see if you *need* to de-worm. De-worming by the calendar leads to resistant worms.

Read the info at this website. It's very good.
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,8934.0.html

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Old 07/16/09, 01:56 PM
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The label on the bottle says it is not viable as an oral. That's why we did the injection.

BUT is it safe to do ivermectin again, in case it didn't get into her?

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Old 07/16/09, 04:09 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
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I have never seen a label like that, most Ivermectin 1% injectables simply give the subq dosages for cattle or pigs and leave it at that.

It's is common knowledge that giving all wormers orally to goats works best, you can search on here or the internet to find universities who agree. 1% ivermectin is used at 1cc per 50 pounds orally, it has a wide margin of saftey so go higher rather than not giving enough. Does it work in your area for the worms you have?

If you don't fecal, your best bet is to use Cydectin spring and summer and in the fall and winter use Ivermectin (Ivermectin plus if you have snails). Vicki

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Old 07/16/09, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO View Post
Ivomec is given orally in goats. Their metabolism is such that it's not utilized well when given by injection, except when given for lice.

Do a fecal exam to see if you *need* to de-worm. De-worming by the calendar leads to resistant worms.

Read the info at this website. It's very good.
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,8934.0.html
ditto...I give ivermectin orally to my goats
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Old 07/16/09, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians View Post

It's is common knowledge that giving all wormers orally to goats works best, Vicki
I'm getting ready to dose with Ivomec Plus (slugs and snails and a pond, as well as some soggy areas). I found this site, which says to give the injectable as sub-q and why:

http://goat-link.com/content/view/58/46
Quote:
I use Ivomec and Ivomec Plus successfully at the rate of 1cc/40lbs goat weight SUbQ injection for my goats. If they are severely wormy- I use 1cc/30lbs and ALWAYS SubQ in this case because of the possible bleed out from using it orally as explained in the BottleJaw Article in this website.
Oral application is quickly becoming the easy route that goat owners take in administering injectable dewormers. for giving it also leave the system quick- whereas injections work at a slower rate and stay in the body longer.

There are 4 stages of larval development and in order to kill all 4 stages (which have an approximate developmental period of 10 days) we deworm 10 days apart for a consecutive 3 times- so you will deworm , then in another 10 days and again in another 10 days - then again one month later and then on an as needed basis.

Never give any injectable dewormer orally for severely wormy goats as it can cause severe bleed out in the gut:
You are always advised by me to inject Ivomec and Ivomec PLUS injectable- it is made for injecting. When it is given orally it passes through the body within hours. It kills large numbers of parasites quickly and when they die they detach from the stomach lining and intestinal walls,leaving thousands of tiny holes that bleed into peritoneal cavity.

I would much rather give orally instead of injecting it, but am concerned by the above statements.

I know this is a controversial subject and I hope my trying to determine the best method of treatment for my animals doesn't

Oh, and I'm perfectly capable of giving shots. The reason I'm concerned about injecting Ivomec goes back many years to when I used to go to the sale barn every week. There was a "regular" attendee of the sale, kind of an old-timer type, and I remember one week he came to the sale and he was laughing about the goat he had bought the week before and how he had taken it home, gave it a shot of Ivomec, and it dropped dead. That has just kind of stuck in my head all these years, and it has made me a little queasy about injecting wormers.

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Old 07/16/09, 10:23 PM
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Oral application is quickly becoming the easy route that goat owners take in administering injectable dewormers. for giving it also leave the system quick- whereas injections work at a slower rate and stay in the body longer.

...................................

It's not controversial, it's simply wrong. We use oral routes in goats because it does slow down the time the drug is in the system. By injecting ivermectin, it will work, but it speeds through the system subq (fastest is IV, then IM, then subq, then oral) so it does not give the very fast metabolisim of the goat time to really get the full effect all the way into the intestine....sort of like giving a mini dose or an hordeorve.

You don't have to reenvent the wheel, Texas A&M and other teaching univerisities have already done all the work for you, they do them on goats. Both on meat and milk, running commercial herds of boers and also a working dairy herd at the Universites from Austin down to Hempstead. We know that using Ivermectin injectable as an injectable is the reason we have such wide resistance to it.

Her whole bleed out info is aimed at single stomached animals. Which we all know doesn't work the same way in goats. An anemic goat who dies didn't die from worming, they died from not being wormed. Vicki

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Old 07/16/09, 10:28 PM
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Thanks.


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Old 07/17/09, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians View Post
It's is common knowledge that giving all wormers orally to goats works best, you can search on here or the internet to find universities who agree. 1% ivermectin is used at 1cc per 50 pounds orally, it has a wide margin of saftey so go higher rather than not giving enough. Does it work in your area for the worms you have?

). Vicki

With due respect, my experiences do not show this to be true. I have quizzed 4 vets regarding this, and not one of them had heard of this practice. I have quizzed numerous goat owners, and all but one has never heard of this practice, and the one who has heard of it does not do it.

What I think is more true is that goat owners with internet service who frequent HT have a knowledge of this practice. And this number of people would compromise a very small number/percentage of the goat owners of the world.


I think it is misleading and inaccurate to say that this is common knowledge.
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Last edited by goatsareus; 07/17/09 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 07/17/09, 01:46 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
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I can go on the internet and find people to agree with anything I want, including that the sky is pink. I also know just on this forum we could start a poll with how many of us know 4 vets we would NEVER take our goats to. So me calling 4 vets, other than mine is meaningless information.

I have had goats 23 years, the difference between myself and alot of the old guard is that I chose to continue my education, go and learn from parisitologists who did the studies on goats, not listen at club meetings to the gals guessing for years. Bet if you asked the numerous goat owners you talked to few could tell you what worms they identified on fecal, that then was killed to at least 90% on the next fecal, after giving the wormer they chose. Most worm and believe what they are doing works because someone else told them so. Few fecal. How many time do you hear how good their goats look, is the reason they know what they are doing is working?

So respectfully, I can't afford to go with what others say, it's why I am on lists like this making sure new folks don't buy goats untested for CAE, let them know that most are guessing on if their parastie info works.............. learn to fecal, learn to pull blood, those two things are just as important as learning how to disbud or trim feet.

And in the end I am much more interested in what you do on your own farm. What wormer do you use? What EPG number on a chambered slide to you choose in your area to worm? What eggs do you idenifty alot more than I do, since the only worm I seem to ever worm for is HC...but being in Ohio, how cool would it be to have all this information from you for the forum? When you do have the numbers of cool weather worms you likely have that I don't have, what works to kill them? Do you fecal 7 to 10 days later to know?

Did you not go through the resistance to Ivermectin like we did down here or does it still work for HC where you live?

Disagreeing or agreeing with what I write is fine, but wouldn't it be better to include the information in your post that would work better than what I do? I don't put alot of weight into most info that comes from 'labs'...but when you can reproduce the kill of the parasites with the exact same information at your own farm, I do listen.

Surely in Ohio you have a university with a goat study in it that is applicable to parasties in your area...I would bet if you used them as your source you would find the same info from them on the use of oral wormings in goats. Vicki

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Old 07/17/09, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goatsareus View Post
What I think is more true is that goat owners with internet service who frequent HT have a knowledge of this practice.

I knew of and used the oral method years before getting the internet and many years before HT. Here, it is common knowledge and is advised by any vet that knows anything about goats.
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Old 07/17/09, 02:23 PM
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I can't imagine finding 4 vets that know a whip about goats! I have only found one that I at least feel comfortable bouncing ideas off.

http://www.luresext.edu/goats/library/pomroy2002-2.html

notice that both the moxidectin pour on and ivermectin injectable are used orally by langston university.

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/was...20pen%2020.pdf

ivermectin injectable used orally at oregon state.....

you will find lots of educated sources that use ivermectin injectable orally and very little more than anecdotal amateur articles to back up its use as an injectable to combat internal parasites.

time and time again I find that vets are the LEAST reliable source of up to date information regarding goats. society holds them in high esteem and tend to take their word for everything (and in emergency situations that is appropriate).
the first vet I took a fecal to......opened up his book and said "fenbendazole".....I was already educated enough to know that any other info I asked him about goats was likely worthless.

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Old 07/17/09, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians View Post


Disagreeing or agreeing with what I write is fine, but wouldn't it be better to include the information in your post that would work better than what I do? I don't put alot of weight into most info that comes from 'labs'...but when you can reproduce the kill of the parasites with the exact same information at your own farm, I do listen.

Surely in Ohio you have a university with a goat study in it that is applicable to parasties in your area...I would bet if you used them as your source you would find the same info from them on the use of oral wormings in goats. Vicki
In your long dialog, I think you lost track of my singular point. You brought up a lot of issues I never touched on. My point in my previous post was that this statement
“It's is common knowledge that giving all wormers orally to goats works best”; is inaccurate and misleading. I know of no vet who has heard, much less recommends, giving all wormers, orally. You are trying to make this practice seem main stream. It is not a main stream practice. I am sorry that you find my information meaningless; that I know of no one who gives wormers, orally.

I have been doing my own fecals on my goats, and others’, for 14 months, and I have completed 87 fecals in that time. That averages to more than 6 fecals a month, every month. I have no doubt that I have valuable information in my fecal recording database. My worming program evolves almost daily. As you can imagine, it is fascinating to understand the some of inner life of my goats guts! Frankly I don’t care what research may be going on at an Ohio University. The Ohio State Vet school turns out vets that don’t know twit , or even like!, goats. They view goats along the lines of chickens, not a valuable animal. So why would I look to them for advise on goats? I really enjoy doing my own fecals.
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Old 07/17/09, 08:12 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
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Than share your information.

I am lucky Texas A&M not only runs a major commercial dairy but also commercial boer goat operations. I know peronally both guys who run each project and 2 of the parisitologists. They come to our club meetings to give us current info on parasites, and do fecal refresher courses, one is an ADGA judge.

I would be hard pressed to find any of my peers who don't know this as common knowledge. And certainly anyone who has read anything I have written, I share my knowledge, knows this also. Vicki

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Old 07/17/09, 08:22 PM
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I'm not familiar with cydectin, or ivermectin plus. I wonder if in Canada this is something only available at the vets? Straight ivermectin and sometimes safeguard is available at the feed stores.

But still: how long between doses if I'm not sure she got this dose or not?

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Old 07/17/09, 08:30 PM
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From: Sheep and Goat Medicine, edited by D.G. Pugh, DVM, MS. Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition, Professor of the Food Animal Section, College of Veterinary Medicine, Auburn University, Alabama - copyright date 2002. ISBN 13:978 0 7216 9052 0

This is one of the premier veterinary college textbooks in use at this time.

Page 427 -
" Few dewormers are approved for goats in the United States but extra-label use of anthelmintics designed for cattle is not uncommon. ..... Anthelmintics should only be administered orally to goats. Clinicians and owners should keep in mind that anthelmintics may be metabolized at different rates by goats than by cattle or sheep. Unless a dose has been established for goats, the animals should generally receive a dose 1.5 times larger than that given to sheep."

DG Pugh DVM MS
Diplomate ACT & ACVN
PO Box 26
Waverly, AL 36879
dgpugh@southerntraxx.com

D.G. Pugh earned both DVM and MS ( Ruminant Nutrition) degrees from the University of Georgia. He received post DVM training at Virginia Tech (Equine/ Clinical Nutrition) and Texas A & M University (Reproductive Medicine/Theriogenology). He is a board certified Diplomate of both the American College of Theriogenology and the American College of Veterinary Nutrition.

He has held faculty positions at the University of Georgia (Assistant Professor) and Auburn University (Professor of Large Animal Medicine), and was the owner of a multi-person large animal practice in the greater Atlanta, Georgia area for five years, and has been a consulting veterinarian for Fort Dodge Animal Health from 2004-2009.

During his academic career he taught veterinary nutrition, lectured on reproductive medicine for horses/donkeys and small ruminants, and was a clinician in Ambulatory medicine and Theriogenology. He was Director of the Auburn University Camelid Research and Teaching Program from 1990 -2004, and Director of the Reproductive Center from 2001-2004.

He is the author of >400 publications , >80 book chapters, a textbook, and a Co- Author of a publication of the National Research Council of the National Academies of Sciences. He is the recipient of five university, three national awards for teaching, and the University of Georgia’s 2006 AM Mills Award for contributions to Veterinary Medicine. He has served on various committees for the American Association of Equine Practitioners, the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners, the Society for Theriogenology, the College of Theriogenology, and the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, the National Research Council's Nutrient Requirement Committee for Small Ruminants, and is an active member of the American Academy of Veterinary Parasitologist.

He continues to lecture on Animal Health and Nutrition at several Veterinary Colleges in North America, is an active member of the First Baptist Church of Waverly, Al, a sheep, llama, and donkey owner, a husband to Ms Jayne Pugh (since 1974) and the father of two daughters and a son.

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Last edited by Alice In TX/MO; 07/18/09 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 07/18/09, 06:42 AM
 
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I guess the point I am trying to make is, worming goats effectively is an EXTREMELY complicated issue. Some of you are trying to make it a black and white issue; there is only one way to worm goats and that is to use chemical meds orally. Isn’t this is a relatively new recommendation? How new?? Maybe ten years?? I think it is important to remember that this recommendation is the new best guess of how to treat goats for worms. And that this is not the only one way to approach this issue.

I hope those of you who have had success researching the studies completed at the State Universities can help me find some reports.

The following quote is from the Extension Service which puts forth research completed by land grant universities such as Texas A&M.

“If one elects to use a pour-on product, which is also not recommended, the material has to be delivered on to the skin. Parting of the hair may be necessary to achieve this, particularly if the hair is long. There are mixed reports as to whether pour-ons, approved for use in cattle only, work on goats. For the most part, they do not seem to be that effective in goats.”

Here is the link to the full article..

http://www.extension.org/pages/Goat_Dewormers

I have written the Ask the Expert for the location of these Mixed Reports and the expert did not know the source of these reports. I want to see these studies, learn their methodology, and understand what they mean by, Mixed Reports. Has any one seen these reports or can offer a link to these reports?

DixyDoodle, there is some information for you in the link I provided. But the real answer for you is to have a fecal exam completed to know the real answer. And for you, I would wait 10 days after you gave the med.

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Last edited by goatsareus; 07/18/09 at 06:46 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07/18/09, 03:59 PM
 
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I do not know any goat people personally who injects ivermectin. It is always done orally. Not all my info comes from this forum.

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Old 07/18/09, 07:05 PM
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I'm afraid that all official reccomendations regarding goats are new in some sense. from my understanding not much research has went into goats until relatively recently. hence the great strides in worming (after creating terrible resistance with the seat of pants method) great strides in disease identification and management as well as nutrition. in the past people were really flying by the seat of their pants. now some effort has been made to find out what works. if you look much farther back than the current research you will find reccomendations to worm your goats with tobacco or basic h.....I still get "helpful advice" about that.

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Old 07/19/09, 11:11 AM
Katie
 
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DixyDoodle, I give my Ivermectin orally too & did so before I found this forum also.

If your not sure the injection went in properly & she was my goat I would give her a dose orally & then in 10 days to 2 weeks do another dose orally.

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