Which Goat Should I Get?: Take 2

[mad_misky]

Okay, I'm searching for registered nubian does in my area, and these seem to be the best options so far. I only have pictures of the first ones. Tell me what you think:

Option 1:
two registered does for sale, $500 each or $750 for both. Tested negative for CAE and Johnes, vaccinated, wormed. In milk.
3 hour 20 minute drive



Option 2:
$450 for any goat. Organic farm. Registered. Currently offering does in milk, does will be bred in January. No vaccines, all-natural, alternative health practices.
3 hour drive

Option 3:
-3-4 yearlings available at $400 each (registered and CAE negative).
-Mother-daughter (this year's baby) combo available as well (mother is also CAE negative and both are registered). $600 for the pair.
-Couple of this year's babies for sale too starting at $350 registered (they are not old enough to CAE test til they are a year old).
5 hours 20 minutes drive

Option 4:
one registered doe for sale, CAE-negative, dry, born in '05, $400 - owner's last doe, was the favourite she was going to keep, but has decided to get out of goats.
4 hour drive

[hoofinitnorth]

What do you hope to get out of your goats? Milk, show, kids, all of the above?

[mad_misky]

I'm starting a herd of kinder goats for milk and meat. I don't care about showing.

[hoofinitnorth]

I personally would be most interested in Options 3 and 4, but I show and want correct structure for that purpose (in addition to milk). Remember that while you don't need a show winner, you will do better with correct structure, especially with regard to production and longevity to produce more like goats for you with fewer problems. This goes for the goat's overall body and balance, as well as the specifics of the mammary system. Now if you only wanted meat, that's a whole 'other ballgame as you can get some good deals this way, but adding the milking part into it makes it a bit trickier. For this reason, I think I'd still look first at Options 3 & 4 but ask if they have some "second string" does that might be a little less expensive. Then ask WHY they are less expensive. Since you want milk, steer clear of anything negative about the way they milk, unless you are able to work through those things (say behavior on the milk stand vs. fish teats). Also ask for milk records and ask for the *whole herd's* testing results, not just the doe you want. You can excuse babies, but adults should all be tested (we test anything over 6 months of age for CAE, CL, & Johne's).

[mad_misky]

Are the goats in the pictures not good examples of type?

[hoofinitnorth]

Well, to err on the side of caution and courtesy, I'd say they are at least not good pictures. If you want to learn about type for your chosen breed, start with the breed standard. Then go look at what's winning in the show ring, then go look at what's winning in milking competitions. From this you'll get an idea of what "works" and what doesn't and you can find your happy medium. I'm not a Nubian or kinder breeder so I can't give you a whole lot more specific to the breeds that others here couldn't do better, but I don't care for the photos of the two goats pictured, either from a meat or a mammary standpoint. If I absolutely had to choose one or the other, for what you've described, I'd be more interested in the second goat pictured.

[AnnaS]

I agree with Heather about structure. The dairy goat show card was developed by commercial dairymen, and because of this, top show does tend to be top milkers and vice versa.

Around here, $500 will buy a show-quality registered doe with milk and appraisal records and a good pedigree. Maybe not a CH material doe, but a very good kind of goat. Neither of these two does look like that kind of doe.

If you are starting a kinder herd, ADGA registered does will mean nothing. I would recommend geting familiar with good structure in dairy goats and picking up some sale barn/Craig's list Nubians. Slaughter price for does is $0.50 to $1.00/lb live weight, to give you a starting price.

[hillbillly]

the mother-daughter combo would be my pick.
or a pregnant nanny, like i did last year.
we now have her gorgeous doeling kid and milk too.

[ozark_jewels]

Having been through several goat sale barns in the area, and seen all the CL and CAE riddled goats(all housed together in pens with the healthy *looking* goats)that they offer.......I would never reccomend a newbie trying to pick up foundation stock at a sale barn. In fact.....its the first thing I warn them about.
Cheaper does with good structure, yes. Sale barn does, never.
Those does are not $500 does.....at least not in this area. Though I commend them for CAE testing. If they were confirmed bred, in milk, and tested......maybe $500 then.
If I was picking one from those pictures, I'd take the second doe pictured.
The pictures are bad. Bad angles, the goats are standing oddly.....

[ozark_jewels]

On those kids who "aren't old enough to be tested till they are a year old", I'd still get them tested at my own expense if I was interested. A CAE test on kids *will* tell you if they had CAE positive colostrum.

[Cannon_Farms]

I dont do dairy, but dag gum those are high prices, and not that impressive of does to call for that (no offence to the owners). I like the looks of the second doe, and would probably buy her myself, however not at that price. Shes meaty herself so that means good meat for that end, and I like the angle of her teats, some may not but I find those slightly foward are easy to milk, and after milking a half dozen goats at the last dairy show, I learned really quick different angles and sizes for different people.
If you dont get into a hurry youll get what you want. Just a little tibit, livestock is always higher in spring and summer, cheaper in the fall and winter when feed becomes an issue

[Cannon_Farms]

ps, papers dont mean squat if the look isnt there, there are some fuggly kids that have came from the best bloodlines.

[AnnaS]

Okay, doe critique...

Doe #1: her rump is much higher than ther withers. This can cause kidding problems and drainage-after-kidding problems. It also makes the doe move awkwardly.

She is shallow in the heartgirth- the chest right behind the elbow. We'd like to see the floor of the chest well below the elbow. This gives lots of room for hearts and lungs to circulate the blood that makes milk. She also doesn't have much width or length to her body. We want to see a wide long body since feed capacity determines a good part of the doe's milking ability.

Her front legs look good- strong, straight, and far apart. Unlike horses, we want to see a short, upright pastern like we see on this doe.

She has a good extension to her foreudder, which means she can store more milk and hold up a full udder easily. Her teats are the right size and shape for milking. But she has no milk! A good udder should look like 3/4 of a basketball.

doe #2- she is more level, but still a little high in the rump. Like doe #1, her rump angle is steep, which can cause kidding difficulties and is often associated with a shorter udder. This doe also has "posty" rear legs, which are less springy than more angulated legs. the rear legs support much of the doe's weight, plus her udder and a good deal of her pregnancy weight. an angular leg is a much better shock absorber than a straight leg.

this doe also looks to be shallow in the chest. She has more body capacity, since her barrel is longer, deper, and wider than doe #1.

Her udder also really lacks capacity. Her teats are long and well deliniated, so she should be easy to milk. She also had a tilted udder, where the whole udder is pulled forward. this is more of a show fault than a practical one, IMHO.

I would be curious to see these udders full of milk. If they are milked out in the pictures, they could be very good udders when full.
i also like doe #2 better than #1. But I think she is a $150-$200 doe.

[Painted Pony]

Originally Posted by AnnaS

If you are starting a kinder herd, ADGA registered does will mean nothing.

If you want to register your Kinders with the IDGR or KGBA your does will need to be purebreds and registered. I highly recommend trying to find purebred Nubians and Pygmies to start your herd. I only have purebred ADGA Nubians for my Kinder lines.

Before you dismiss the two pictured does, do you have any other photos of them you can share? Rear udder shots, does standing on level ground, front udders and head on shots? What about bloodlines, ages, health? They might be worth a look. Nice thing about adult in milk is that she is ready to breed soon and you know she can be bred.

Where are you located? Someone on here may know people for you to contact that have good Nubians and Pygmies, or even some Kinders!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Number 4....she is dry already? Pass.

You want registered does for exactly the reason Painted Pony stated, and tested negative does who are in milk, or bred and in milk, you aren't picking them up in my area for less than $500 and that is for does who would never win in heavy competition. Plus if you ditch the kinder idea for mini-nubians which will make you more milk and more money, you also want registered Americans or purebreds, and you may eventually want a purebred buck to raise purebred Nubians, for the most bang for your buck, so get purebred Nubians only.

#1 rump is awful

#2 unless just fresh is fat, no doe can be much of a milker and still be this fat. I would rather purchase a lean doe than a fat one that will come with all sorts of health issues even if you lean her down. (trouble conceiving, fatty liver.

Pick someone privately to help you, in your state is the best idea. The yearlings would be a very good idea if you had some help picking out what to get....worse would be buying organic voodoo stuff then find out you are living in the south and continue this practice...fine for them peaceful and at home, horrible for them as they stress from moving into our heat and humidity.

Ask for help. vicki

[mad_misky]

I live in southern Alberta. It seems like goats cost more here than in other areas. I don't think there are any kinder goat breeders in Alberta. I'm having a heck of a time finding any registered pygmies to speak of, and finding these nubians was pretty hard, too.

Doe #4 wasn't bred this year. The owner meant to breed her by AI, but never got around to it.

Well, I didn't really like the pictures, either (well, mostly #1 looks hideous to me) but I couldn't really put my finger on it. She did warn me that she was terrible at taking pictures, but I don't know... They are being dried off, so their udders are probably not that full. She was only going to keep milking them if I committed to buying them, but I didn't. These are the last ones available and she said she was eager to get rid of them, so I'm thinking I'll pass.

[mad_misky]

Oh yeah, and here's option #3's website:

ravenwoodranch.com

[Bricheze]

You might want to go see the ones that are closer in person and take the pics yourself.

[hoofinitnorth]

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

On those kids who "aren't old enough to be tested till they are a year old", I'd still get them tested at my own expense if I was interested. A CAE test on kids *will* tell you if they had CAE positive colostrum.

That's a good point! We test anything over 6 months of age here and we also test any babies at the buyer's request *at our expense*.

[GoldenSeal]

Tell me the breeders you're getting all these does from. Tamara is a respectable breeder and I have bought Nubians off her before. Her goats are nicely trained and look lovely. I live Close to Lloydminster. There are some breeders you should stay away from concerning Nubians. You need to figure out bloodlines. I recently bought a few goats off of Carol DuMont and paid 400-500 dollars a piece but these are top quality does and are already starting to show it.

Edit to say that Tamara IS Ravenwood :P