Herbal Wormer

Wonderland · #1 06/30/09, 03:33 PM

I was wondering if anyone here uses herbal wormer? I've been using the formula from Molly's Herbals (from Fiasco Farm), and so far everyone appears to be in good health (3 Nigies- two does and whether kid). No weight loss, no pale eyelids, etc. It makes me nervous to be the only person I know using herbal, though. I've been thinking and I am kinda leading towards at least occasionally using conventional to be on the safe side.

What do you guys use? If I supplement with conventional, what kind is best?

Thanks guys

DQ · #2 06/30/09, 04:13 PM

the deal is that it doesnt' matter what you are using if you have no worm burden. if your goats have little to no exposure to worms or for whatever reason do not have a problem with parasites than just worming them with something is kinda pointless. do you get what I am saying? I personally have no faith in herbal wormers as actual treatment for parasitic infections. do they help prevent infestation? its possible. browsing lespedeza has been shown to do so scientifically (something that herbal wormers can't claim imo). If you aren't having a problem then do what you are doing. maybe do some occasional fecal checks. I would suggest if you bring anymore goats in to isolate them and put them through a rigorous worming schedule before introducing them to your herd. I would suspect that it is not the herbal wormer that is doing much but more your good managment. pat yourself on the back!

edited to ad - for future reference (for a new goat or a parasite problem that arises) cydectin pour on for cattle used orally at 1cc per 22lbs seems to be the most widespread effective wormer available. it is use by most serious breeders I have found with much success and no side affects. Iahve used it for three years now with no problem and much better results than the ivermectin I was using.

southerngurl · #3 06/30/09, 04:15 PM

Get a microscope and learn to fecal, it's easy once you learn it. Using a microscope and famacha you don't have to worry or guess.

Wonderland · #4 06/30/09, 04:40 PM

Thanks for the advice and recommendations

I think I'll recheck their eyelids just to be sure, and also get some cydectin to keep on hand. I've learned it's better to have something on hand when you need it than to have to try to find it or wait for it to be shipped!

Aren't microscopes kind of expensive? I wouldn't mind using one at all, but I imagine it'd be hard to find an inexpensive one.

Alice In TX/MO · #5 06/30/09, 04:45 PM

http://www.opticsplanet.net/carson-d...mera-epix.html

It attaches to your computer.

Wonderland · #6 06/30/09, 04:52 PM

That's really neat! And a lot less expensive than I would have thought.

southerngurl · #7 06/30/09, 04:56 PM

I have this one, works really good. I do kind of wish it was binocular as it's tiring on the eyes to do several fecals.

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/My-...16244C576.aspx

madness · #8 06/30/09, 05:16 PM

Yup, we only have a monocular scope at the farm, so I'm always bringing fecal samples into work to use the binocular scope here! Sooo much nicer!

We are experimenting with herbal as well. So far so good. I had said in the past on this forum that the woman we got our goats from uses herbal ONLY. Well, I was entirely mistaken. I've been talking to her again recently and I simply misremembered. She is a huge advocate of herbal wormer. Says she went from chemical worming several times a year to very rarely rarely once she started using herbs (some goats it's every year, other goats less often). She does her own fecals and never hesitates to use the chemicals if things look like they are getting out of hand. So there's one anecdotal bit from a person who does do fecals - something that a lot of anecdotes about herbal wormer is missing.

So we've got chemical wormer on hand for when we need it too. Haven't yet (got the goats in October) but one has dropped weight this week and gone a bit down in production and I'm checking her fecal tomorrow. Might have our first chemical wormer candidate!

steff bugielski · #9 07/01/09, 05:29 AM

I have been using Molly's for years and love it. The girls milk great ,look great and no heavy worm loads even this year with all the rain we have had.
And the huge bonus of no milk withdrawal. I sell the milk so to dump it for 1-2 months is not an option.

Wonderland · #10 07/01/09, 11:07 AM

Thanks for the feed back

I think I'll probably keep up the schedule with Molly's, 'cause they seem to like it and it hasn't had any bad effects. But I'm going to get some of the conventional stuff, too, just in case. Better to be safe than sorry!

DQ · #11 07/01/09, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steff bugielski

I have been using Molly's for years and love it. The girls milk great ,look great and no heavy worm loads even this year with all the rain we have had.
And the huge bonus of no milk withdrawal. I sell the milk so to dump it for 1-2 months is not an option.

unfortuanatly the only reason there is no milk withdrawel could be because it hasnt' been studied. most herbal wormers contain artemesia which can possibly be passed through the milk and can cause problems particularly in pregnant women.

I am getting really irritated that so many human drugs and remedies are being taken off the market because .....

1. people who can't read and follow directions

and even worse.....

2. people make the ignorant assumption that because something says 'homeopathic" or "all natural" it can't be harmful and use it willy nilly.
When in reality it often hasn't been tested in clinical trials for safety and efficacy (the case with herbal wormers). natural doesn't automatically mean harmless. and in the case of it actually going through some rigourous testing it ends up caught in the hands of #1. If something is strong enough to be effective it has the potential to be harmful.

I'm sure your customers...like most of the general population apparently.....are caught up in the trendy words with positive connotations such as "natural" and "homeopathic" and are assuming it is safe to use. word like "chemical" have negative connotations in our society and vendors both knowingly and ignorantly prey upon people by utilizing the cultural implications of a few descriptive syllables in a language.

if we replaced all those words used to describe wormers and started calling them substance A substance B etc....then presented the facts beside them......such as..... substance A -tested for efficacy......subtance B -not tested for efficacy......Substance A-tested for potency.......Substance B-not tested for potency........Substance A-tested for safety........Substance B- not tested for safety.......I am willing to bet the general public would choose the "chemical wormers" hands down over any herbal wormer I have seen. they are unfairly influenced by the cultural definitions and connotations in our language.

Wonderland · #12 07/01/09, 04:44 PM

I understand what you're saying about people abusing herbal products. My mom is a nurse, and she always pounds into my head "herbs are just like medicines; they can be dangerous, too" so I know what you're saying. I chose to try herbal not just because I think - *if* it's effective - that it's better than using chemicals. But I also wanted to try them because the person who makes them at Molly's Herbals says that she's never had a problem with worms gaining resistance to the herbs like they can with the chemicals.

However, if the herbs cease to work or my goats start showing signs of an infestation, then I'll definitely use chemical wormer. If the herbs don't work, then it's not any better for them.

Thanks for the input

steff bugielski · #13 07/02/09, 08:16 AM

The herbal formula from MOlly's contains nothing you wouldn't or couldn't eat yourself.
Fennel
Curcubita pepo
Garlic
Mugwort
Hyssop
Thyme
Stevia

The other formula contains also
Wormwood
Black walnut

Can some one please tell me what it is about herbs and holistic treatments that you are against. Why is it that some of you simply will not accept that these things work whether it be a remedy for parasites in livestock or to cure humans of some illness or condition.

i find the resistance to a natural cure to be so mind boggling.

TennesseeMama23 · #14 07/02/09, 09:50 AM

Wormwood is dangerous to pregnant women. That is the only ingredient that is very worrisome. I wouldn't drink milk that had come from an animal that had taken it if I were pregnant and think it is dangerous/unethical to sell it to people who have no idea they are taking a risk.

Wonderland · #15 07/02/09, 10:06 AM

I think the website warns about the worm wood, because I remember reading something about it. I'll go check-

Yeah, she does warn about pregnant animals taking it, though she doesn't mention milk withdrawal for pregnant humans.

"Formula #1 Wormwood Combination Dietary Suppliment *Safety Notes:

* Since this is an herb mixture and not a drug, it can legally be labeled as safe to use in animals when pregnant (which is what most other herbal wormers) BUT since this formula contains Wormwood, which is an "Emmenagogue" (An emmenagogue is an herb which encourages menstrual bleeding, and so it could induce loss of uterine lining which may cause miscarriage.) it is not considered safe by Herbalists for use in pregnant humans or animals. I recommend not give to pregnant animals. If you are using another herbal worm product, read the label or find out what is in it before you buy it, and if it contains Wormwood, you should take this into consideration. You should use Formula #1 right before breeding and then start using it again the day after the animal gives birth."

steff bugielski · #16 07/02/09, 12:00 PM

Yes and we do not give to the animals when pregnant. I do not sell milk for 24 hours after giving that formula. I keep it for myself. It is only given for 3 days every 8 weeks so no big deal.

ozark_jewels · #17 07/03/09, 09:24 AM

Wonderland, be aware that you will have a totally different level of worm problem to deal with in TN than Steff will in NY. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So I highly reccomend doing fecals while using the herbal and *at least* using Cydectin the day that your does kid out.

Wonderland · #18 07/03/09, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Wonderland, be aware that you will have a totally different level of worm problem to deal with in TN than Steff will in NY. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So I highly reccomend doing fecals while using the herbal and *at least* using Cydectin the day that your does kid out.

That is true, and honestly something I hadn't thought about.

Wonderland · #19 07/03/09, 04:10 PM

Oh, does Cydectin work for goats only if given orally, or does it work if you use it as a pour on?

ozark_jewels · #20 07/03/09, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderland

Oh, does Cydectin work for goats only if given orally, or does it work if you use it as a pour on?

It will not work properly used as a pour-on. Use it orally.
I have been using it for almost ten years with very good results. My goats browse on a large amount of acreage and I might worm 1-3 times a year depending on the goat. No matter what, every goat gets wormed the day they kid.