copper deficiency?

[mpete]

A dear friend of mine had her nubian give her triplets a week ago. Very striking markings on the kids! Anyways, 2 of them wouldnt stand striaght on their hooves until a couple days ago, the other one has her lower jaw stick out a bit further than the upper. She sucks on the bottle just fine and her upper pallet appears to be all there. She has noticed this year that several of her goats have rough coats and the tuffs of their tails missing. She has wormed, done fecals, had fecals done, they all have good hay, loose minerals, sulfer and mineral blocks, selenium blocks, calcium/protein blocks, baking soda, grain on the stand... we have heard that copper deficiency may cause these symptoms, but how else can she add copper to their diet? She had a neighbor years ago borrow her goats and they came back healthier than when they left. The lady said she gave them a multivitamin, but she died before she could tell her what vitamin. I also have a doe that has a rough coat... no worms.... copper deficiency? .... ?????!

[mpete]

Oh, I forgot to add, the kids got their shots at birth including Bo-Se

[farmmom]

Sounds like copper deficiency to me! Mine are doing the same thing. I'm waiting for my calf-size Copasure to come in so I can bolus them all. Mine are also on a good loose goat mineral, but are bronzing, loosing hair on the tail, have dull, rough coats.

[Idahoe]

I am dealing with copper deficiency for the first time since I've had goats. In Idaho, it was not an issue, and in my first residence here in WA state, it was not.

But since I moved to a property in a 100 year flood plain, in three weeks my goats began losing pigment in their fur, the milk production went to the toilet, I've had staph dermatitis that was almost impossible to cure, an probably other stuff I don't know about.

Sandy loam soil is nice for gardens but is about the worst for copper.

I went on Jeffers.com and purchased Copasure 12.5mg capsules, which are copper boluses that you give your goats. I still need a bolus gun, but I opened a few of the capsules and made the right doseages for the goats based on weight and put them into smaller empty pill capsules.

They say it takes about a month to see the difference in their coats and condition. My DD26 and I are going to bolus them today. I havent done it before, so this ought to be interesting.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by mpete

they all have good hay, loose minerals, sulfer and mineral blocks, selenium blocks, calcium/protein blocks,

Even if the mineral she is feeding has adequate copper, these goats will not get enough of it when they are given all these choices for minerals.

Get a good loose mineral with high copper, take away all other blocks, etc and leave the mineral out and available 24/7.

Goats eat mineral essentially for the salt content. If they are given choices such as the blocks, they will not eat enough of the loose mineral to get adequate copper.

But yes, I would say she needs to bolus to correct the deficiency now. Once she gets rid of all the other supplements, has them on just a high-copper loose mineral, and is on top of the copper deficiency by bolusing, the loose mineral *may* be all they need. Just have to try and see.

Me, in my area, I have to bolus and keep out a high copper mineral to keep my goats working to their best ability.

[ozark_jewels]

Here are the boluses.

MG-C1 Copasure, 12.5 gm Calves 150-500 lb over 3 months of age (jar of 25)

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/...&cmkw=copasure

Here is the article with dosage information:

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

[st1055]

You may want to check on the minerals, supplements, water content. There may be something binding to the copper and not allowing it to be absorbed. I have heard sulfur can do this, also iron content in the water can cause problems.
Good luck
Steve

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

And the third kid is a birth defect.

saanendoah.com has all the information you would ever need to know on copper, she did all the work with universities and thousands of goats in the pacific northwest, and further south than that. I know that herds from southern california where I am from to Washington bolus, and still use minerals with adequate copper. Please note though that super high amounts of copper sulfate, is not a good mineral supplementation, you want at least copper amino chelates or copper oxide in the mineral along with copper sulfate...and you also do not want it red with red iron oxide.

But no, your friends kids do not sound like the problem is copper, the problem sounds like selenium. But it is whole package, perhaps the amounts of bo-se you use would start working if you dealt with the copper defficency in your herd. Also E, there is little E in Bo-se, just enough to absob the selenium in the injection, and here, the 1cc per 40 pounds certainly will not treat defficency it is only used to bolster amounts of eggs ovulated and to treat kids at birth, E is give orally to all kids, and starting next year I am going back to the E crumbles I fed years back to my does when heavy bred.

This is where knowing someone with stock that you admire in your area, who tests, who continues their education with their goats...because someone pre about 10 years ago, not only doesn't use selenium but doesn't know what copper bolusing is for. Vicki

[ozark_jewels]

Yes, Selenium and Copper work hand in hand, you won't get benefit of one with proper levels of the other.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

because someone pre about 10 years ago, not only doesn't use selenium but doesn't know what copper bolusing is for. Vicki

Run into this several times just here lately. Talk about feeling like a young upstart trying to explain copper and selenium to someone who has owned and bred goats longer that I have been alive.......

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You do wonderful Emily. I am not sure why we have such a large group of old broads who simply won't learn. Stuck in the olden days with all the old information, which is fine for your herd, but please stop passing it on to new folks! One such west coast breeder says that the copper information is simply useless, as she still fights retained placentas and that '---- curly coats and sparse hair on her Nubian bucks' (that she blames on new bloodlines and linebreeding)....please. You just keep giving out the information. vicki