I don't know how I missed this...

[Elsbet]

Other than the fact that she bounces around an AWFUL lot when I handle her.
Our first doe, Gytha, has 4 teats. She has one large(ish) one on each side of her udder, and then right next to each teat, a much smaller one. Is this going to be a problem when she is freshened, or are we going to be ok just leaving them?
DH said when they had cattle, they would remove extra teats at birth, but Gytha's a year old or so.
I still can't believe I didn't notice that before when I checked her- I'd just found one large teat on either side and no masses in the udder. With her jumping around so much then and not having a milking stand available to secure her with, I didn't investigate further.

(ya'll can kick me for a fool now.)

[GoldenSeal]

It used to be normal for goats to have four functional teats. San Clemente Island goats still do in fact have four functional teats. It is not unusual that you'll see the gene come back every once and a while and dairy goat owners snip it off to try and hide the fact that it was there too. It can be passed on through the genes though. If they're just duds just snip them off but if they're not duds and actually do milk well then watch out when you milk her because you'll have milk squirting from the other teat. It's easy to get used to though. This is also very common in boer goats. If you're planning on keeping her kids on her then I'd watch them because sometimes the extra teat doesn't give enough milk and the kids will starve to death trying to eat from it.

If you want to have a good look at her and you don't have anything to put her on. Put a collar on her neck with some rope, and tie her somewhere with next to no give. Then tie her leg to something else so it's in the air. This is how I begin to milk my does that are wild. They cannot jump around and you can get a pretty good look at their udders. Be forewarned though, they FLIP out at first. I have a wooden fence here that I just tie them too.

[Elsbet]

oh, thank you! You set my mind at ease.
When she is freshened we plan to take the kids off her immediately, so them starving won't be an issue. I think I'll just leave them on in this case.
DH is building a milking stand for me, so I'll be able to work with her on my level better, and more securely. The place we got her didn't have a stand, though, or any way to secure her. It was a slightly more erratic inspection than I would normally want, lol.

Our newer doe only has 2 teats, though, lol.

[GoldenSeal]

I own San Clemente Island Goats so it's pretty common around here.

[Jcran]

Boers also can have up to two teats on a side. I milked a boer for the last two weeks to get a bit of extra milk for a dairy doe kid we just got, and she wasn't difficult to milk at all. Those small extra teats you mentioned will probably stay very small.

[GoldenSeal]

Yep, it's commonly four functional chambers. Before humans messed with goats (I don't know if all) but most actually had four functional chambers. But of course it's easier to milk two teats as opposed to four teats so it was bred out of the dairy breeds. Plus, if you've ever seen a goat feeding three or four kids she only stands for so long and one or two always gets left out. So, to me it makes sense for meat breeds to have the four chambers BUT I also agree with the dairy folk breeding it out at the same time because it's easier to milk :P

[chamoisee]

I would like to see some scientific basis to the claim that all goats used to have four teats, mainly because sheep, deer, and antelopes all have only two teats as a rule, and are closely related to the goat. Fact of the matter is that extra teats pop up in many species, including humans.

But back to the original question, in my opinion, it depends on your goals and the goat. If the doe is a Boer or a pet or a fiber animal, I would let it go. If she is a dairy goat and you plan ever to show her or to sell kids from her, woud seriously consider culling her. In other words, meat, so that she doesn't wind up producing more kids with this trait that is considered a serious defect by ADGA, resulting in disqualification: http://www.adga.org/2004-judging.html. It's unfair that you got stuck with this, as it is undoubtedly due to someone else not culling, but why propagate a trait that is going to break other hearts?

Reputable dairy goat breeders cull goats with extra teats and do not use bucks with extra teats. A breeder who simply cuts the teats off isn't any more honest than one who lies and says that the goat is disease free, knowing full well that it has CAE and CL.

As a homestead doe, will it matter? I don't know. To be honest, I haven't tried it. I've only had one or two kids born with an extra teat and they went for meat and their sire and dams were not used again, because the trait is apparently recessive. You can try it and see....I know it hurts, but if it were me, I would put the time and love into a doe that I could keep kids from without worrying about this trait popping up again.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by Helianthus

I would like to see some scientific basis to the claim that all goats used to have four teats, mainly because sheep, deer, and antelopes all have only two teats as a rule, and are closely related to the goat. Fact of the matter is that extra teats pop up in many species, including humans.
.

I know nothing about "goats used to have four teats", but all the deer I have ever butchered have had four teats.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by GoldenSeal

dairy goat owners snip it off to try and hide the fact that it was there too. .

Only dishonest breeders do this. Talk about a blanket statement.

To the OP, if you decide to snip off the extras, be sure and wait to do it after she has freshened and you can tell if they are all working teats or if two are duds. If you accidently snip off teats that have working orifices, it can cause all sorts of problems, from a constantly leaking hole, to a doe who has a section of milk that has no way to be released. I have personally dealt with these issues.
First one was in a cow, where the owner snipped off an extra at birth, the hole constantly leaked when she freshened.
Second was a pretty little Alpine who the owner had snipped off the extra teat at birth, sold the kid with full disclosure, but that teat had an orifice and when the doe freshened the first time, the milk had no way to escape. I butchered her.
I would reccomend leaving any extra teats, as a great reminder that its in the genes, if for no other reason. It is a cull factor in dairy goats, so her kids would be best off being butcher goats. Now, breed her to a Boer buck and the kids will be fine for a meat herd. More than two teats is fine in Boer goats.

[Elsbet]

I didn't really get "stuck with her." I bought her from a woman who had to go out of the country for missions. It helped her, and kind of broke me into the world of small goats (I used to have some Nubians, years ago.). This goat can't be registered with adga- we know she's a Nigerian dwarf, but we don't know if she is also part something else. Our plan is to get milk from her- enough to make a little cheese and some soap, and to eat her kids, unless she has a doeling that I really, really want to keep, but it would be for personal use. We have no intention whatsoever to become breeders or show our goats, and if we sold extras they would be sold as "pet quality only" not dairy or meat. What people choose to do with them beyond that is up to them, but they would be sold with full disclosure.

My only concern was, will this be a potential added mastitis risk? If they are duds, probably not, and if they have a chamber of their own, I'll just be careful to milk them out well.

All the deer I've ever butchered have had 4 teats as well, and I've done a fair few with my dad.

[GoldenSeal]

Yep and every wild goat I've ever seen or had pictures of all have four teats. Just give me a couple days to compile some information on it and I'll get back to you. Although I have no idea what you'd consider credible I'll give you some information on it.

Yes, I should have specified and said that not all dairy breeders cut the extra teat off. It does happen a lot though.

[pokyone42]

I did not know that deer have 4 teats. COOL!

[Goat Servant]

When she freshens I wouldnt worry about it. Sure keep an eye on the kids to make sure they are gaining weight, but you are going to be doing that regardless of teat structure.
One of my Boers has 4 working. Another has 4 teats but only 2 working. Those kids figure out pretty quick which teats work!

[chamoisee]

How embarrassing. I did not know that deer, elk, and moose all have four teats! (guess you guys can tell I don't like to eat venison, huh?)I guess I assumed that they were like goats. (blush)

I still would like to see some proof that all wild goats have four teats. I somehow doubt that sheep were also bred to have only two teats, while goats have always had four. I think it is more likely that the four teated trait pops up at random, just as some men have three testicles and like I said, some human women have extra breasts or extra breast tissue, and sometimes even a double reproductive tract. Mutations happen.

What I have read (will look for a source) is that Boer goats were intentionally bred to have four teats.

[kreddish]

Hey... it sounds like there is a future for the little doe...

[GoldenSeal]

Why do goats in the wild have four teats? I own San Clemente's who came straight from the wild and I'll tell you EVERYONE ONE of them that I have owned have four functional teats. Pops up at random? I think not. Anyways, just give me a few days.

I have no idea about sheep.

[chamoisee]

Originally Posted by GoldenSeal

Why do goats in the wild have four teats? I own San Clemente's who came straight from the wild and I'll tell you EVERYONE ONE of them that I have owned have four functional teats. Pops up at random? I think not. Anyways, just give me a few days.

I have no idea about sheep.

That is one breed, and since it came from an island, it is probably very tightly bred, increasing any traits (such as four teats) that might have been there in the original stock. Just because this breed has this trait does not mean that all wild goats have four teats. What is more, the San Clemente Island goats are not true wild goats, they are feral goats, descendants of goats left behind by sailors. http://www.scigoats.org/history.htm

[ladycat]

According to this: http://science.jrank.org/pages/1969/Deer.html Asian Musk deer have 2 teats, all other deer have 4.

Also see http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/X6529E/X6529E02.htm

Now I need to look up wild goats.

[ladycat]

That's a hard bit of information to find.

According to this and several other sources: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/DS134 the Pasang is the ancestor of the domestic goat.

According to this: http://books.google.com/books?id=gu0...esult&resnum=3 the Nilgiri is the only goat with 4 teats.

Therefore, one can deduce that the Pasang has 2.

[LFmenagerie]

Deer have 4? hmm. I only cut up what comes in the house. Interesting.
Elsbet- it sounds like you have a good plan for your girl. Raising meat goats for your own use. If you had someone that wanted to buy you would probably disclose this 4 teat information that it is not a desired trait for dairy does and inherited so they can make their own choice.
If she is a smallish girl you could breed with a Pygmy buck. They are meaty and pound up quickly. I was impressed with the amount of meat a pygmy will carry for being short.

For her dancing when trying to milk...I have two eye hooks on each corner of the milk stand. From each of these there is twine tied in a loop (other small rope will work but I was in a frusterated hurry to get the 'problem' fixed). Then I took the velcro computer cord stuff (its a velcro band that sticks to itself) and passed it through the twine and cuffed each leg of the doe. It took two of us to hold her so we could custom it for her to keep her legs in a comfortable yet confined position. But that was just the original fitting. After that I was able to strap her in myself. And it worked like a charm. She dumped milk nearly every time I milked her for two weeks before I did this. I think she took an unusual length of time to stop the behavior but she stands very nice, now.
What I liked is that I didn't have to disclipline her. Just strapped both back legs in and milked.
Good luck!