Worms so soon after deworming?

[MamaDee]

I have a milking doe who kidded 6 weeks ago. She was dewormed with Safegaurd the day after kidding. She was doing great until today. This morning she didn't eat her grain during milking, but still gave plenty of milk. Tonight her milk production was way down and she has diarhhea.

Could she have worms this soon after deworming? I know some people don't think Safegaurd is effective, but I hate to use Ivermectin on a milker b/c of the milk withdrawl time.

Can you think of anything else this could suggest? She didn't eat anything weird.

I'm going to check her eyes in the morning.

Dee

[Alice In TX/MO]

Take a poo sample to the vet.

[RiverPines]

I always worm twice after kidding. One the next day after kidding and again 21 days later.

I never had a goat go off feed except for during labor when kidding.

I would be worried your goat is sick.
Have you taken a temp on her?
Has she had any opportunity to eat something bad like a toxic plant?
Has anything in her diet changed?

[MamaDee]

Oh, right. I will get a temp. I should have done that.

She hasn't eaten anything out of the ordinary.

Do goats not lose their appitites if they have worms?

I was thinking about Cocci, too. My DH hurt his back and their pen is past need of cleaning out. We're buying a little skidloader to take care of it soon. But I know it's past due, so it's not as clean as it should be.

Dee

[RiverPines]

Originally Posted by MamaDee

Oh, right. I will get a temp. I should have done that.

She hasn't eaten anything out of the ordinary.

Do goats not lose their appitites if they have worms?

I was thinking about Cocci, too. My DH hurt his back and their pen is past need of cleaning out. We're buying a little skidloader to take care of it soon. But I know it's past due, so it's not as clean as it should be.

Dee

I wish I could be more help.
I have had worm loads through the years but never did anyone stop eating.
I thought adults dont get sick with cocci?

The only time my adults goats have gotten diarrhea was when they ate something that didnt agree or to much, to fast. Some probios and it cleared right up.
Once they got in the swamp and ate some aquatic plants that gave them the squirts pretty bad but after 3 days of hay only and some probios all of them were good as new. Yes, my goats go into water, some go as deep as their chest!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

We had this conversation back in April about Safeguard and how it won't work to worm your goats. It is no better than using nothing. It will maybe, given enough, evacuate tapes, and tapes are not something you worm for in adult doe who has just freshened. I don't know anyone who fecals, uses Safeguard and will tell you it gives them good results in blood sucking worms.

The diarrhea you see is from blood, the intestine literally sloughing. Now she is low in milk production from dehydration.

How anemic are her eye membranes? We have an anemia chart (Famacha) up at dairygoatinfo.com in goatkeeping 101, what color are her eyelids, if pale, she is anemic, blood sucking worms. IF you don't worm her with something like cydectin she will fail to thrive, eventually something opportunistic like pnemonia will kill her. This time of year it's cocci and worms in kids and adults...well besides azalea posioning.

You can't get a good fecal from diarrhea, especially if it has been going on very long, although you can see blood. Vicki

[MamaDee]

Vicki,

What do you worm with when you're doing a milker and don't want to dump her milk for an extended time?

I know we talked about Safegaurd.....I just can't get past the milk withdrawl time on other things. Guess I'm learning my lesson if she does have worms. I'm going down to check her eyes and temp. right now.

Dee

[saanengirl]

When I want to deworm a milker without a long withdrawal I use Pyrantel. I get a tube of the horse formulation (a tube of Strongid paste is $6.95 at Jeffers Exodus paste is $3.49 at Jeffers). I give half the tube immediately, and the other half two weeks later. The first half tube will kill the adult worms but not the larvae. The second half will get the larvae when they become adults. My dad did some research into dewormers and said that in France there is no milk withdrawel on goats dewormed with Pyrantel.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I do a 48 hour milk withdrawal on most wormers, I don't use Ivermectin when a doe is fresh, I don't use a flukeicide unless I am needing to. Carriers are really the only thing left in milk or meat when tested...and internet info is only soo good since we don't use the same mg/kg of wormers, and certainly not the same route that they are tested on in cattle.

Pyrantel is a good winter wormer for strongides but does not kill HC here, it works no better than Ivermectin does, which in reality means monthly wormings with no real kill of adult worms not matter how many times you use it...this is what happened in the 90's after a decade of injecting ivermectin products erroniously.

Quest paste is not that much more expensive than Pyranel or Zimectrin and works for HC, which is about the only worm that causes diarrhea and the blood loss that will kill your goats. Others can make them unthrifty, poor milkers, and over time you could build some immunity to them, but not HC.

I use Cydectin cattle pour on at 1cc per 25 pounds (easier math than 1cc per 22 pounds) I fecal before, use the wormer and refecal in 7 to 10 days...I then fecal sample monthly...I have not had to worm again this year since freshening, even though the goats were shaved, went through some really awful weather (5 inches of rain in 2 days and it rained for a week solid) and they were all hauled to appraisal. With the green up of the pastures, until it gets above belly heigth I will check a fecal every 2 weeks or so to keep ontop of this. Then as the pastures get tall, our worm problems are zero.

Dee, now you have a doe who is ill, she is milking zilch and will continue to milk poorly for weeks...a heck of alot more milk lost if you would have just wormed correctly the day of kidding and tossed the milk for 3 milkings....and you aren't drinking colostrum milk for 24 hours anyway, and the transistional milk days 3 and 4 doesn't taste all that wonderful anyway.

If you aren't going to fecal, and I know folks aren't, please at least listen and follow information that comes from those who do, I have no idea what area you are in, but it is also important that you do indeed listen to those who have climated like yours....the more pasture, the shorter the pasture, the more parasite issues you will deal with.

We would love it if feed through wormers worked, but we know from Edwards Plateau Texas A&M studies done on goats in Texas that in our area they don't...it's good enough for me not to waste my time or milk on them. Vicki

[JKB07]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I do a 48 hour milk withdrawal on most wormers, I don't use Ivermectin when a doe is fresh, I don't use a flukeicide unless I am needing to. Carriers are really the only thing left in milk or meat when tested...and internet info is only soo good since we don't use the same mg/kg of wormers, and certainly not the same route that they are tested on in cattle.

Pyrantel is a good winter wormer for strongides but does not kill HC here, it works no better than Ivermectin does, which in reality means monthly wormings with no real kill of adult worms not matter how many times you use it...this is what happened in the 90's after a decade of injecting ivermectin products erroniously.

Quest paste is not that much more expensive than Pyranel or Zimectrin and works for HC, which is about the only worm that causes diarrhea and the blood loss that will kill your goats. Others can make them unthrifty, poor milkers, and over time you could build some immunity to them, but not HC.

I use Cydectin cattle pour on at 1cc per 25 pounds (easier math than 1cc per 22 pounds) I fecal before, use the wormer and refecal in 7 to 10 days...I then fecal sample monthly...I have not had to worm again this year since freshening, even though the goats were shaved, went through some really awful weather (5 inches of rain in 2 days and it rained for a week solid) and they were all hauled to appraisal. With the green up of the pastures, until it gets above belly heigth I will check a fecal every 2 weeks or so to keep ontop of this. Then as the pastures get tall, our worm problems are zero.

Dee, now you have a doe who is ill, she is milking zilch and will continue to milk poorly for weeks...a heck of alot more milk lost if you would have just wormed correctly the day of kidding and tossed the milk for 3 milkings....and you aren't drinking colostrum milk for 24 hours anyway, and the transistional milk days 3 and 4 doesn't taste all that wonderful anyway.

I have to agree with Vickie here.... A short milk withdrawl is better than having a sick goat that wont milk well for weeks or even a dead goat.

If you aren't going to fecal, and I know folks aren't, please at least listen and follow information that comes from those who do, I have no idea what area you are in, but it is also important that you do indeed listen to those who have climated like yours....the more pasture, the shorter the pasture, the more parasite issues you will deal with.

We would love it if feed through wormers worked, but we know from Edwards Plateau Texas A&M studies done on goats in Texas that in our area they don't...it's good enough for me not to waste my time or milk on them. Vicki

Justin

[LOC]

So what is the milk 'throw out' time length with Invermectin? And Cydectin? And Pyrantel?

It would be nice if it were all in one place so people could just look at one spot for the info.

[Alice In TX/MO]

You do understand that most of the wormers have not been tested on goats, so milk withdrawal times on the bottle are based on cattle, which have different metabolisms.

I do a 48 hour milk withdrawal, but that's me. Some folks on this list don't do withdrawal at all for Ivomec. You have to make those decisions.

Also, you don't "throw out" the milk. You feed it to other critters.

[LOC]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

You do understand that most of the wormers have not been tested on goats, so milk withdrawal times on the bottle are based on cattle, which have different metabolisms.

I do a 48 hour milk withdrawal, but that's me. Some folks on this list don't do withdrawal at all for Ivomec. You have to make those decisions.

Also, you don't "throw out" the milk. You feed it to other critters.

My other critters won't drink it, except for my LGD's and there is NO way I will allow them to get anywhere near Invermectin, so for us, it's 'throw out' the milk after worming.

[InHisName]

can it be fed back to the kids?

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by InHisName

can it be fed back to the kids?

Absolutely. Kids, calves, chickens, etc.

[steff bugielski]

In NY state Ivomectin is not allowed by USDA for milk at all unless prescribed by a vet.

[Bearfootfarm]

My other critters won't drink it, except for my LGD's and there is NO way I will allow them to get anywhere near Invermectin, so for us, it's 'throw out' the milk after worming.

Ivomec is perfectly safe for dogs (except for Collie breeds).

[MamaDee]

So normally you use the Cydectin cattle pour on...what's the withdrawl on that, since I am already using her milk?

Also you mentioned Quest paste...do you use that also or were you just commenting on it. Do you know the withdrawl on it?

I understand it's better to use something good since you don't drink the milk right away after kidding anyway....but everything I read on Ivermectin had something like a month withdrawl time. I wasn't familiar with the other wormers, only Ivermectin and Safegaurd.

Anyway......thanks for the deworming info. Now for what I should do. My doe seems completely fine now. She didn't eat that one meal and had runny poop for a day. The next day and since then (2 more days) she is fine. So....I don't know if something bloomed that she ate and didn't agree with her. She's on the same area of pasture she has always been on.

Would you deworm her anyway since I used Safegaurd to begin with, even though she's fine now?

Her eyes and temp were o.k. But I'm not a great judge of eyes....but to me they were pink enough.

Dee

[DQ]

Originally Posted by MamaDee

I know some people don't think Safegaurd is effective, but I hate to use Ivermectin on a milker b/c of the milk withdrawl time.

Dee

it is not a *think* thing. it has been demonstrated to be ineffective. i personally saw no noticible reduction in eggs after worming with safegaurd at 10 times the reccomended dose. people know it doesn't work they don't just think it. ivermectin is regularly used in people. any residue in the milk is of little consequence. be less afraid of the wormers and more afraid of the worms.

[Alice In TX/MO]

There is NO official dairy goat withdrawal time, as it has not been tested for residuals when given orally.

Some folks don't bother with withdrawal times.

I do 48 hours.

YOU SHOULD GET A FECAL TEST DONE!