bad disbudding?

[madness]

How do these look to you? It's been about 2 weeks. When can you tell if you've got scurs?

I wasn't around for the actual disbudding so I don't know what it looked like right after. I do know that only 1 or 2 passes were done with the X30.

[pookshollow]

It's hard to tell but I'd say it looks like they didn't go deep enough. When I disbud, I pop the horn caps off, then cauterize them, so I know I went far enough.

You should see those caps fall off if it was a good disbudding. Worst comes to worst, you can redo it.

[madness]

The two doelings are pushing 3 weeks (hmm, 3 weeks today actually). One is the top picture and hers look better than her sister's. One of the caps has popped off (as you can see) but there is still a big ol' knob under there. Is that right?

The two bucklings (one is the bottom picture) are 2 weeks and again, the one not pictured looks worse to me.

When is it too late to disbud again? The vet was just out last week and she said she could do a cosmetic horn removal on them if the disbudding didn't take. She is the only goat vet in the area but admits they aren't her expertise so I figure I should ask here!

[hoofinitnorth]

GIve them a few more weeks. If you see new growth, do it again. Make sure you let the iron heat up for a REALLY long time before you try it. Like at least 15 minutes and let it get cherry red. So many folks tell me they don't think their iron ever gets cherry red and I say that's because they don't let it heat up long enough. Give it time and it will turn red and you won't have to be in the dark to see it.

You really aren't limited on age/time for disbudding, but the sooner it's done, the easier it is and the more permanent the results. Very soon we will be burning scurs on some older boys we bought. I've done it on goats as old as a year but we'll be doing some more mature animals this go 'round after the scurs come off.

[madness]

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

I've done it on goats as old as a year but we'll be doing some more mature animals this go 'round after the scurs come off.

Wow, learn something new everyday. I assume this is for scur removal only. You can't burn a whole horn off once it's too big to fit the tip over it right? The disbudder came too late (backorder!) for one of our bucklings. He is going to be meat so it's probably not that big of a deal. Just info for next time around. He's 3 weeks old and has inch long horns that haven't been disbudded. Too late for him right?

[jBlaze]

I would do them again now. Waiting makes it real hard to hold the animal and they seem to suffer more later.
I had two boer kids that I re-did that turned out great.
(re-did: bought them from a guy who took them to the vet I gave up on cause he can't do them right.)

[Chaty]

They look like they need to be redone to me...Iron not hot enough and its basically branding or just taking the top layer off the horn...all those will do is bleed everytime they hiot them...best to redo ...

[alidansma]

I have had to re-do a few myself - I look for swelling outside of the burned ring. - that tells me it is still growing. The place where you burn should be flat on the skull, so any growth outside of that is new growth. I marked the area on your picture where I would re-burn if it was my goat. It is amazing how quick the base of the horn enlarges. I have Nigerians and the oldest one that I had to have re-burned (before I started doing my own) was three months old. I have had to re-do a lot of goats, but at least I am catching them earlier now. Hope that helps! - ali

[madness]

Oh, so I'm looking for regrowth on the "skull" and not on the top of the "nub" (I'm sure there are proper word for these things!). I figured you watched the top part to see if they kept growing. Thanks so much for the marks on the picture!

Looks like everyone agrees it's re-burn time. What a drag! Those pictures are a week old and I'm going to see the goatlings tomorrow. I'll be able to check them over a little better now with the tips you guys have given me. I might post new pictures if I have any more questions. Thanks!

I love this forum...

[QoTL]

madness-

Thanks so much for posting these! It's so helpful for a newbie like me to see both what goes right AND what to look for when it doesn't!


Meghan

[hoofinitnorth]

Originally Posted by madness

You can't burn a whole horn off once it's too big to fit the tip over it right?

Sure. You cut the horn down as much as possible and burn the tissues thereunder. You can do this if the horn is broken off at the base too. It's not pleasant and it's not easy. Banamine general is good and lidocaine local is another option (I do NOT know about using them together).

Another thing, if the horns are still relatively small, the disbudding iron will burn/melt them. If you can safely get to them and keep burning until you get all the way down to the hornbud, you can do it, but I think it's MUCH easier to cut them off first and then burn the bud.

madness, yes, you look for new growth at the skull, not on the burned top.

Your goat looks like one that was burned a bit later than others, but with alidansma's illustration, you can see possible regrowth. It's hard to tell though. They may be fine, but yes, look for that new regrowth. Don't confuse it with the cap separating from the skull as the healing takes place and rejects the dead tissue on top.

[alidansma]

here is a few more pictures, maybe they will also help.
The first one is the goat that I had re-done at 3 months old:



The next is a goat this year 10 days after disbudding - you can see how flat the head still is.


When I started disbudding I waited too long. And I also found that the first two goats I did this year had skurs growing on only one side...the side that was done first looked great - but I didn't wait long enough between sides, to let the iron re-heat and the second horn on both goats needed to be re-done.

[deetu]

I've been wondering this. I never did it but thought to do it this time.

How do you pop the cap? Do you hook it with the iron? Do you scoop it out?

[Starsmom]

The guy that does mine will let the iron heat back up and then uses the edge of the iron and just scoops or pops the center out, once it is out he uses the side of the iron to cauterize the area. The boys are always a problem. The reason is their horns have a much larger bud/base. I have seen irons that sell a buck attachment that is shaped more like a keyhole than a circle. I guess that is to get the entire bud. IF I ever get the nerve to do it myself, that's what I'll get, it makes sense I guess.

[madness]

Wow, ali, ours never looked that deep and flat. Thanks for the pictures!

And that first goat looks like she has a milk "mustache" from dipping her whole face in a bucket!

[madness]

Just wanted to give an update on the kids.

First, I'm sure this one needs to be redone. Can you say "horns"? ARG!



This girl was also done on the same day. She didn't want to sit still for the picture though. (I've learned to snap shots of their head when they are bucket feeding since it's the only time they stay that still!)



She's the first one in the OP for a comparison (photos taken a week apart). Her caps fell completely off (one already had in the first picture) and now black is regrowing on top. Sure sign of needing a redo, right?

[luvzmybabz]

some people say to pop the tops others say do not pop the tops, I have a doeling that popped her cap off flinging her head around before they even got to the other side and she needs to be redone. I was a little late getting these done I wonder if that makes a difference about the caps? anyone?

[jBlaze]

First kid looks like it was never done at all (well hardly). The second kid was only done a little. Both need to be done completely.

Don't wait. They grow so much daily, today would be good!

and don't go to the person that did this to begin with! (except to give them a kick in the but for an explination, lol.)

[hoofinitnorth]

I pop the tops and I burn underneath. If you don't do this, you don't do a complete job and you will get scurs.

Depending on how late you wait to do it the first time/how fast they grow (I think most bucks tend to grow faster than does), the caps will look different. If they had pretty good-sized buds to start with, they probably will not burn completely flat, even after the cap comes off and you burn under it. But when it all falls off, the head should be pretty flat.