Soliciting Advice :)

[issylthesthlia]

Well, since I'm learning things the hard way, I though I'd solicit some advice here and now.

Here's the situation:

I have two mini-milkers. One, Star, is a miniature Saanen. The other, CLover, is a miniature LaMancha.

Star is almost 8 weeks old. Clover was born March 10th.

Pending no more disasters (cross fingers) I'm planning on breeding them in the fall/winter to a Nigerian Dwarf buck. (Specifically: http://k9robinson.googlepages.com/ourherdsire )

So I'm here to ask what the best things I should do NOW to prevent any issues for them in the future within this plan. I want to avoid pregnancy/birthing problems that are preventable.

I live in AZ in an area that does NOT get very cold. It was 77 two days ago, which is considered pretty cool for this time of year. Snow isn't going to happen next winter. I also live in a suburban area. I have a pretty big backyard, considering where I live, but I don't have access to large fields or pastures (I wish!). Other than the two goats, we have chickens and a few baby waterfowl, but that's the extent of it.

So... with all that background Advice? Tips? I want these girls as healthy as possible. I *am* on a limited budget (husband is completing grad school this semester). So... I welcome all advice!

TIA!
Bonnie

[hoofinitnorth]

Well, what sort of things are you asking about, specifically?

What drew you to choose the two does you have now?

What drew you to choose the buck you're mentioning?

What do you know about either's background, siblings, ancestors, etc.?

With regard to basic conformation & birthing ease from a physical standpoint, it depends on the conformation of both dam and sire, which can be evaluated by sight and feel, as well as by what they throw, and it depends on the genetic potential behind both dam and sire, which can be evaluated by pedigrees which show known animals and known like progeny. In other words, if your doe has a narrow pelvis and you breed her to a buck with a narrow pelvis, you may have kidding problems and you will probably get kids with a narrow pelvis, which leads to more future kidding problems. On the other hand, if doe has a narrow pelvis, you try to pick a buck that will contribute a wider pelvis, hoping it will "fix" the kids, but also hoping the doe will be able to pass the kids. You have to pick and choose what you want to try to fix and what you don't want to deal with at all. It's why "nice" animals are sold from breeding farms all the time - they have likely kept "nicer" animals that better fit within their breeding program. If you're on a limited budget, you're going to really want to stay away from breeding animals that have a high likelihood of needing c-sections or vet care to get through a pregnancy.

If you are wanting to breed a mini to a dwarf, why not just start with dwarves? If you don't like the dwarves, for whatever reason, remember they contributed half to what you have now. Anyway, you could breed them to another mini so you'd get second generation minis instead of dwarf/mini crosses. (I breed dwarves, but I don't breed minis so I'm not up on all the particulars of the minis and how they get their next generation status, etc. so if I misstated this, please someone correct me!)

[jBlaze]

I would certainly not be breeding dwarfs at that age. They tend to have kidding problems anyways, and in my opinion breeding at under a year is just asking for a disaster. again, my opinion.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Are they a first cross? First crosses of full sized Lamancha/ND and Saanen/ND can easily handle kidding the first year to a buck in the mini breed, kids are small and multiple, it's not like having one large kid. Now if the buck is known to throw large kids or he himself isn't very far into the breeding program, than you should be careful who you breed him to.

If your does are further along into the breeding program 3rd generation etc...than you should not be even thinking about breeding them this year. Wait and breed them to kid summer or even winter before they turn 2.

I would be following the advice of others breeding mini's, we have a mini lamancha board at dairygoatinfo.com, I am president of MLDGA (Miniature LaMancha Dairy Goat Association) and with Sondra as vp who has had minis as long as I have had standard does, it is just easier to have the board on our dairy goat site. Vicki

[issylthesthlia]

They're first generation minis-- with a long line of great dairy and show goats on the dams' sides. I've met the buck who was the dad, but I don't know much about him except that he's registered and has a nice "look".

The farm I got them from specializes in LaManchas with a smaller herd of Saanens. They are a dairy farm and bred some FF to the Nigerian Dwarf just out of curiosity and possibly for show, with little or no intention to keep any of the offspring of the mix. Part of the deal buying them was making sure that I kept in touch and let them know how the girls do production-wise.

The dairy they came from is actually altrece.com.

I wanted the mini-milkers specifically because I *am* in a suburban situation where I wanted milk for my family and to be able to do the space we have. I specifically wanted a Saanen because of past experiences with them (the sweetest goat alive ) I chose the mini-Mancha because of her mom. As FF both does are currently producing 1.5 gallons each a day or more-- good production lines.

I won't be keeping any babies. I chose the buck I did for because NDs are very popular here as pets right now, and I've liked the babies he throws. If I didn't have neighbors and limited space I would intend on getting a buck of my own, but its not feasible here.

We don't intend to show-- basically the goats are for milk for me and my one son who shares my allergies, and as pets. They're registrable, but I don't think I'm going to register them. The LaMancha's mom is gorgeous and will be doing the show circuit with the breeder's daughter this year (with the herd of over 200 to pick from )

I know more about horse conformation than goat conformation, but I can get some conf. shots of both girls if that will help with any advice.

I'll check out the mini-Mancha board!

Thanks!
Bonnie

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I had alot of Altrece in my original LaManchas back in the early 90's.

So what generation is the buck you will use to breed these does? Vicki

[issylthesthlia]

He's pure ND...

I was hoping that, also, breeding them to a smaller buck the first time might be easier on them...

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

We have not found using a ND is breeding them smaller once you get up in generations. But for what you are doing he is fine. The doe kids are certainly saleable.

There is little difference in how you raise the first cross doe than how we do our fullsize does who also will be bred to kid as young yearlings. Milk, milk and more milk, weaned to protein and more calcium (hopefully alfalfa hay) a good grain mix, excellent minerals and copper bolused at weaning if your area is like ours.

Your parasite issues will be nill to none with your arid conditions, well maybe not all of Arizona is desert, I use to summer in Lake Havazu with my aunt. Now THAT is dry. Vicki

[issylthesthlia]

Our area has an excellent source of local high-calcium alfalfa, so I have access to that. Our area is dry (have to water to get a garden), but not as dry as some areas (I'm in Tucson).

Thanks for the advice-- I'll make sure they have access to good goat minerals and grain mix, alfalfa (free access) etc. I'm already teaching them that there's access to some grain if they go into the milk stand on their own (My riding teacher used to do this with horses and horse trailers... just leave the food there and they'll like it better )

I handle both goats frequently-- feed from bottle by hand four times a day, and then have grooming/cuddle times as well. The mini-Mancha loves having her tummy and "udder" area rubbed. The other is a little more skittish, but getting better about handling.

Thanks again for all the advice!

(My only challenge is a serious allergy to alfalfa, but I've dealt with it in the past Just have to stay on anti-histamines and designate as much as possible of the alfalfa handling to my husband . If I even get near it I get chapped looking skin all over my body and can't breathe LOL. But they have access to it now and they will from now on too )

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Take alfalfa capsules, that is what I did in California (lived on a horse farm, fed alfamo (chopped alfalfa with molassas)) it worked amazingly well, it completly stopped the hay from triggering my asthma. Now horse dander, it doesn't come in little pills Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

You have a lot of sound advice in this thread, just plain good basics.

I also caution against newbies (myself a newbie) breeding youngsters "too early". That said, it does depend as much on your comfort level as it does on the lines and the health of the doe and the buck's history. Some breed young and do fine. Still, I like to wait.

Now here's the reality, lol. I bred three young this year and all will kid around 13-14 months of age if they took. I had a lot of eyes and hands on them and all are almost the size of their mothers (near same height with solid width and a "mature look" but clearly not quite as developed as mom at this age). I was nervous about it until I bought a couple mature does who are smaller than these growing girls. Most around here think I waited too long as they like to breed to have kids *no later than 13 months of age* except in exceptionally small does. I haven't drawn blood yet to send to biotracking, but if they didn't take on the first time out, they won't be rebred for at least another month. If they don't take that time, they will wait until fall to try again. (I really do not want kids on the ground in February - March is cold or wet enough here!) In any event, I have a lot of solid local mentors so I am very lucky. I have also had the great opportunity to attend kiddings at other farms and see how they do things. Priceless!

You have a lot of time to plan, so I think it's great you are thinking about it now. Good luck!