Really bad kidding- hoping for advice on what I could have done

QoTL · #1 03/31/09, 07:25 AM

Last night was my first kidding ever. The doe is my older gal, accidently bred and still down after a bout with hypocalcemia. She wasn't pushing very well at all.

It was horrible really, but I'll skip to the question since the pain is a bit too fresh.

Both babies were born with heart beats but no movements or breathing AT ALL. My dh and I rubbed, and cleaned mouths, and I hung one upside down to try to get lungs to drain. I pinched ears and hooves. Nothing. I've since found out I could have stuck a straw up the baby's nose. Are there any other tricks that one uses in that situation?

Second, babies were born with their eyelids fused shut, although otherwise they looked like they were at term. Does this mean they were premature, suffering from Mom's issues, something else?

Is there a trick to grabbing slippery hooves inside a sack while still in mom? I couldn't initially get more than the 4 fingers (no thumb) of my hand in there, and wow it seemed IMPOSSIBLE. I ended up breaking the sack, and got him out then, but there has to be an easier way?

What's the easiest way to turn a kid from on it's back (head tucked below opening)to rightside up, with still only 4 fingers? (I had to wait for dh then slide my thumb in a milimeter at a time to give her time to stretch. Felt like I was hurting the poor girl something awful though, but there's very little bleeding which I'm taking as a good sign)

Hopefully I'll never deal with something like this again. I feel like I've just been through war. I came in at 3:45am, took a shower, and haven't been able to sleep since.

I'd like to be prepared in case anything like this ever happens again. All the book knowledge and website searches didn't help with the odd stuff (like: what to do when your doe is pushing but it's not accomplishing ANYTHING and you have to hand pull kids from the uterus...)

QoTL · #2 03/31/09, 07:30 AM

Just wanted to add..

I'm aware that some of this could have been prevented from the get-go if I had realized the importance of calcium. My girl has been receiving it around the clock for.. close to a week now. THAT part I'll know better next time.

mary,tx · #3 03/31/09, 08:03 AM

I have been keeping goats for about ten years, and I just lost an older doe to this same issue. I was sick myself when I noticed she was starting to have problems, and simply didn't start treating her as quickly as I should have. In her case, the kids were fine. I lost one of the three just because I wasn't there at kidding.

In your case, my guess, based on the shut eyes, is that the kids were preterm, and there is nothing you could have done.

Chaty · #4 03/31/09, 08:17 AM

There wasnt anything you could do to save the babies if the eyes were fused together...just too early and are premmies...had soem this year and nothing can help...sorry you lost them and how is your doe doing?

Rockytopsis · #5 03/31/09, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary,tx

In your case, my guess, based on the shut eyes, is that the kids were preterm, and there is nothing you could have done.

I think Mary is right, sorry for the loss of your kids.

Patty0315 · #6 03/31/09, 08:27 AM

How are you treating this doe now ? She should be getting cmpk injectable every 2 hours until back to normal then for 24 hours after wards at least .

Patty

DairyGoatSlave · #7 03/31/09, 09:40 AM

sorry bout the kids, hoepe your doe does okay

QoTL · #8 03/31/09, 10:10 AM

My doe is continuing to get the CMPK, and when she's up to it, we'll continue with the Occupational Therapy (sling lol).

Right now she's doing awful. She was very upset after she kidded, kept looking around for the live babies (we let her spend a little time with them before we took them, but she was convinced we must be hiding another one.). She seems really depressed.

Heading up to give her the meds and some love.

Thank you guys for your input. It just was so disappointing for me, but mostly I felt awful for her. She has had such a rough time, and she deserved to have a baby to show for it (which I was going to leave with her but suppliment with bottle). Now she has nothing

goatkids · #9 03/31/09, 10:16 AM

I don't have any advice for you, but I am so sorry for you loss of the kids.

where I want to · #10 03/31/09, 10:42 AM

Hypocalcemia is sneaky- I actually had a preggo doe to the vet to check on a hind limb lameness. He checked but couldn't find any reason. After I got her back home, I thought "well- maybe........" and gave her some calcium on the theory it couldn't hurt. She was fine the next day. I have never had a rear owie foot with a caclium problem before her.
I'm sorry about your kids and hope you doe get better soon.

I forgot- re: slippery kid legs- I have a piece of nylon webbing with loops at the end to slid over the kid legs in order to get a grip- the wider webbing does not cut into the leg like a rope does.

chamoisee · #11 03/31/09, 11:24 AM

I always break the sack. If you can reach a head, the lower teeth of the kid are quite sharp and can assist in tearing a hole in the sack.

Kid on its back, head tucked down....I would push it out of the way and grab the other one, or try to get to the rear legs. Failing that, grab head *and* front legs, and turn it right side up.

The kids may have been dying already. Dead and dying kids don't "help" the doe or you while being birthed, and so a dead kid almost always means a difficult birth. A dead kid isn't rigid so it doesn't present like a live one would.

I've only had one premature kid born, so I don't know...but have never seen a to term kid born with fused eyelids. This leads me to think that the kids may have been premature.

I don't know if you used a lube, but my experience with going in to help is that olive oil is the slipperiest and and easiest lube to use. I typically oiled my whole arm up to the elbow.

ShyAnne · #12 03/31/09, 11:42 AM

I am also very sorry you lost the kids, but I think you did the best you could do given the situation. Hope you doe gets well soon.

hoofinitnorth · #13 03/31/09, 02:43 PM

A few things in addition to the calcium. Consider supplementing selenium if you are in a selenium-deficient area.

To help a kid inflate their lungs & breathe, there are little devices but what I did this time with a difficult delivery of a very large buck kid (4.75 pounds out of an ND and first through the birth canal), was to cover his mouth with mine and puff into his mouth with some force but carefully and not a lot of air. This sort of inflated his lungs and helped push anything loose out his nostril. I purposely did not cover his nose as he was gurgling even after I had hung him upside-down and swung him several times HARD to get anything out. After blowing, I also pinched the top of his nose flat down and pushed toward the nostrils to get any fluid just inside the nose out. He jumped right up and took in a big breath. In about 15 minutes, he was completely clear (without another breath) and breathing without a gurgle. I got lucky, no aspiration pneumonia.

On turning the goat, you really have to have your whole hand inside. To get in, you just sort of ring around the opening, stretching it bit by bit. Tough on the first one through, I know!

Not sure about the eyes fused shut. Did you try to manipulate them much?

How long did you try to resuscitate? I am told it can take as long as 45-60 minutes if they are by c-section, but imagine you have a while if the heart is beating. Did the cords break? That usually cues them to take a big breath.

shiandpete.1 · #14 03/31/09, 04:34 PM

Meghan,
I am so sorry that you lost the babies. I have never seen a goat with fused eyes but once when I was a teenager had a cow that had a calf that was premature and his eye lids were fused together. He was a bout a month and a 1/2 early so I can only guess that the kids were early. I hope your doe gets better soon and isn't depressed. Poor old girl, give her some special one on one time.

Sarah

Minelson · #15 03/31/09, 05:02 PM

I am so sad for you and for your mama doe

What a horrible "first kidding" and I am so sorry. You have now gone through what so many fear about first kiddings and this is why we try to get so prepared. But this experience shows that even with all the preparation in the world, things can just happen. It's admirable that you can move on and try to learn after such an experience. So many would have crawled into a hole and given up. Big hugs to you and I hope you can get some rest.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #16 03/31/09, 06:14 PM

Not alot a reason to break sacks or anything else until you have her contracting and you have her cervic open so at least your hand can be inside. Manipulating the cervic open, giving CMPK injectable, giving oxytocin. Getting the kids out, lots of massage and milk of the udder or and giving oxytocin and continuing with the CMPK.

Just think there is a whole lot more going on with your doe in this instance than just hypocalcemia. But a good understanding of minerals like calcium, copper and selenium, vitamins, grain for energy and calories, and roughage always hay, always in some form of alfalfa even if it's chopper or pellets.

The kids although she was in labor and full term were long dead and very premature, even 2 weeks early you have eyes open, just sparse hair. So the hypocalcemia was likely invovled with toxemia of some sort or ketosis which usually gives you kids that don't survive the pregnancy disease. vicki

Backfourty,MI. · #17 03/31/09, 06:18 PM

Mehgan, So Sorry for what you & the doe went through & still lost the babies! I have no advice to give, Just wanted to send "HUGS" your way!

Goat Servant · #18 03/31/09, 07:27 PM

Me too Meghan. I feel for you.
This yr we lost 3 of quads. 3 were simple unassisted breeches..no fluid in the lungs at least I couldnt hear it.
The buckling was dead in utero so we had to pull him. Doe seemed to greive and not take care of the others.
Found a couple hunched over, rushed one into the house & got her warmed up. Went back to do the same with another sibling but he didnt make it. Several days later found a nother dead in the am, she wasnt interested in the bottle the day before.
It took a few weeks for this doe to get through what I beleive to be her mourning. Some take it harder than others.
In the past when Ive sold her kids at weaning time she quits feeding the ones who are left.

catdance62 · #19 03/31/09, 08:49 PM

i dont' have any advice...just wanted to send my symapthies for the loss of the babies. It's so hard when you try to do all you can to no avail.

QoTL · #20 03/31/09, 11:35 PM

Thank you guys. That will all certainly help me next time.

This time though.. my girl gave up the fight. I think she would have been ok if her babies were alive, but once she realized they weren't, she went downhill incredibly fast.

It was a horrible, horrible experience.

My Gran was a terrific girl. She was so patient and loving- really more of a people's goat than a goat's goat. On numerous occasions I threatened to turn her into a housepet- she was like a really calm dog. I am so grateful that I had the privilege of having her here with us.

Meghan