CL abcess

[ihedrick]

Have noticed on threads lately about aspirating CL abcesses. Some say do it away from everything and then burn the gloves, plastic, etc. Others say don't do it at all. If the fluids get on the ground; abcess breaks open, dirt contaminated by improper handling of samples taken for testing, or what ever...then what? I know CL isn't good, but don't know all the ins and outs of it. Would that patch of ground be forever unusable for any type animal? Someone mentioned keeping chickens away from the area. What about dogs or cats?

[KittenMittens89]

I read that the ground is unusable for 12 years. I am not sure about your other question though.

[6e]

I don't know that anyone knows how long it will last in the soil, but I've read you can use lime to clean the soil and I've read that you can scrape off the soil and replace with new soil. I've read that it can persist in the soil anywhere from weeks to years. Probably a lot of variables there.

The reason no chickens or dogs or things is because they track it else where on your farm. I don't know about putting other animals there. I've read other cows can get it but I've looked up everything I can about CL in cattle and haven't found anything. But I can tell you that once you get it started on your farm it's very hard to get rid of and requires very high bio-security measures.

[Asia-Pacific]

Interesting topic.I think it is one of those topics that people tend to agree to disagree on.The Maryland Cooperative Extension (Susan Schoenian) states it is a manageable disease.I was reading that before the abscess needs to be lanced on can inject with formalin(sp) a disinfection agent but it must be done in a certain way,believe you start at the 12 oclock postion,cannot remember as it was some time since I was reading that story.I think it is best lanced on a cement floor then cleaned well with formalin.Myself I do not want anything to do with it as it might be playing with fire and one can always get burned real bad.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Real info, not just speculation:

http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/disease_pdf...phadenitis.pdf

More articles:

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/

[LaManchaPaul]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Real info, not just speculation:

http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/disease_pdf...phadenitis.pdf

More articles:

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/

Interesting. But wouldn't you expect that so many years after this piece, that someone would have more current info with studies to back it up? To me, this article still feels like someone who is just writing opinions. He doesn't use the sky-is-falling hype, but I am not sure that he is rightontarget either.

Also, one would think that when the writer uses the word 'cull' for a diseased animal with CL, CAE or the likes, that he/she would use 'fatal cull' instead. It would seem so unethical to cull at the local sales barn.

Paul

[susanne]

the best advice i could give, go to call one of the leading labs like UC-Davis and ask what ever question you might have.
you will be suprized by some of the answers

[southerngurl]

Originally Posted by Asia-Pacific

Interesting topic.I think it is one of those topics that people tend to agree to disagree on.The Maryland Cooperative Extension (Susan Schoenian) states it is a manageable disease.I was reading that before the abscess needs to be lanced on can inject with formalin(sp) a disinfection agent but it must be done in a certain way,believe you start at the 12 oclock postion,cannot remember as it was some time since I was reading that story.I think it is best lanced on a cement floor then cleaned well with formalin.Myself I do not want anything to do with it as it might be playing with fire and one can always get burned real bad.

And what about the internal abcesses?

[susanne]

and after the goat was treated with formaldehyde, it goes on somebody's dinner plate

[LaManchaPaul]

Originally Posted by Asia-Pacific

Interesting topic.I think it is one of those topics that people tend to agree to disagree on.The Maryland Cooperative Extension (Susan Schoenian) states it is a manageable disease.I was reading that before the abscess needs to be lanced on can inject with formalin(sp) a disinfection agent but it must be done in a certain way,believe you start at the 12 oclock postion,cannot remember as it was some time since I was reading that story.I think it is best lanced on a cement floor then cleaned well with formalin.Myself I do not want anything to do with it as it might be playing with fire and one can always get burned real bad.

A farmer has to manage the disease if it exists on the farm. One can not simply condemn the farm, kill the stock and move to another with fresh livestock. However that management technique is the hot discussion on HT in many threads.

I think that what bothers me most about CL discussions is that some farmers with CL dramatically downplay the effects of it in the herd; then justify the release of their animals to sales barns or other less-knowing buyers. There are "horsetraders" in the dairygoat industry and some are unethical about CL and CAE.

Another poster talked about the interneal CL. What a powerful question asked. How does one inject formalin in the lung?

So, For another thread perhaps: What should a farmer do with a proven CL animal?

Paul

[thequeensblessing]

Originally Posted by 6e

I don't know that anyone knows how long it will last in the soil, but I've read you can use lime to clean the soil and I've read that you can scrape off the soil and replace with new soil. I've read that it can persist in the soil anywhere from weeks to years. Probably a lot of variables there.

The reason no chickens or dogs or things is because they track it else where on your farm. I don't know about putting other animals there. I've read other cows can get it but I've looked up everything I can about CL in cattle and haven't found anything. But I can tell you that once you get it started on your farm it's very hard to get rid of and requires very high bio-security measures.

The reason you can't find much about CL in cattle is because it's not called CL in cattle. The infective agent in CL is Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, and the main disease in cattle caused by this agent is called ulcerative lymphangitis. It's also known as pigeon fever in horses. You can read a little about this disease here;

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...802.htm&hide=1

It also can affect man.

[6e]

Originally Posted by thequeensblessing

The reason you can't find much about CL in cattle is because it's not called CL in cattle. The infective agent in CL is Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, and the main disease in cattle caused by this agent is called ulcerative lymphangitis. It's also known as pigeon fever in horses. You can read a little about this disease here;

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...802.htm&hide=1

It also can affect man.

Yeah I know. I think that's what scares me the most. But since CL is always listed as "a disease of sheep and goats" then what affects cattle and horses, is that coming from goats or sheep? Or is it another strain?

[thequeensblessing]

CL, and the accompanying neck/facial abcesses, is a disease of goats and sheep. In horses and cattle the symptoms are somewhat different, involving the legs and chest generally. It's the causative agent that is the same. It can be spread from one species to another, and this paragraph from the merck vet manual explains how they believe it is spread on the farm.

The bacteria probably enter via skin wounds including IM injections, arthropod vectors such as Habronema spp larva and stable flies, and contact with fomites such as contaminated tack and grooming equipment. Unhygienic and wet conditions predispose animals to infection, particularly of the lower legs and ventral region. However, the disease also occurs under excellent management conditions.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

What should a farmer do with a proven CL animal?

........................................

You manage the abscess, or you put down the goat. At the very least contain the communicable disease in a smaller place so you aren't contaminating the whole farm.

There is no excuse after a period of time that no matter the circumstances the herd isn't managed for communicable disease. I couldn't care less what some think is fine for injecting into their goats, or selling meat contaminated with abscess, ...but breeders selling this when they know about it.

The topic is why eventually we will have some form of NAIS, because the sheep and goat industry refuses to police themselves. The problems associated with the feeding of ruminant meat and bone meal to cattle was also well known until the government stepped in and stopped it. Some just have to be controlled to do the right thing.

Wonder what else besides CL will be on the NAIS list of communicable disease. Vicki

[LaManchaPaul]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

What should a farmer do with a proven CL animal?

........................................

You manage the abscess, or you put down the goat. At the very least contain the communicable disease in a smaller place so you aren't contaminating the whole farm.

There is no excuse after a period of time that no matter the circumstances the herd isn't managed for communicable disease. I couldn't care less what some think is fine for injecting into their goats, or selling meat contaminated with abscess, ...but breeders selling this when they know about it.

The topic is why eventually we will have some form of NAIS, because the sheep and goat industry refuses to police themselves. The problems associated with the feeding of ruminant meat and bone meal to cattle was also well known until the government stepped in and stopped it. Some just have to be controlled to do the right thing.

Wonder what else besides CL will be on the NAIS list of communicable disease. Vicki

Vicki, This CL issue is so big that I can't wrap my mind around it. IF AS LISTED in several CL assays by knowledgable writers, that the CL also can be internal, then what good does it do to manage an external absess.

Even if the goatherder injects, or even he/she catches it when it is ripe and properly disposes of that particular absess via whatever management system the farmer uses, the internal ones (if they exist) could be just as ----ing as an unmanaged external one. My logic says that managing the external absess IS NOT MANAGEMENT of the CL communicable disease in the goat.

Paul

[thequeensblessing]

I tend to agree with you Paul.

And yes Vicki, it is diseases like CL that will bring us to NAIS. When we signed up our farm for the "voluntary" scrapie eradication program in Ohio, (and you can't sell breeding stock without being a "voluntary" member) we were automatically enrolled in Ohio's budding NAIS program, infantile though it may be currently. This irritated me no end and I nearly gave up raising sheep due to it. It will eventually invade all aspects of livestock raising under the guise of "voluntary eradication of disease", and if you don't volunteer, you can't sell the livestock, pure and simple.

[southerngurl]

Too bad NAIS wouldn't do squat to get rid of CL.

[Asia-Pacific]

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...ormalin06.html


2009 update from Onion Creek Ranch
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...lymphaden.html

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Asia-Pacific

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...ormalin06.html


2009 update from Onion Creek Ranch
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...lymphaden.html

gasp, blech where is the vomit smiley.......

btw. formaldehyde is not approved for this disease in goats.
i wish i could find the study i read. dead human bodies in the usa take about 10 days longer than in europe to decompose in the ground because of formaldehyde used as desinfectant and preservatives in the food.

this was nice reading too
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/formalin.shtml

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Actually Ashley it could. When we have to report tracking and get health certificates for even shows, you can't get a health certificate on a doe who has CL, even today. Soon you won't be able to use one vet for illness and one vet for health ceritifcates that alot of people do now.

If someone has CL on their farm, and sells meat with the CL abscess in it, it the meat can be tracked back to the farm with the very trace back NAIS will give us. No more dumping of sick stock at livestock markets which never are sold for meat but to others who use them for breeding.

When someone sells an animal that then tests positive for CL within, this will then also be traced back to the farm....like most disease 10% of the stock will be tested, and if found positive, killed? Quaranteened? Makes for some interesting ways of clearing our stock in the USA of communicable disease.

We already know breeders won't do it...right? We all know farms that have CL, and we all know they sell to anyone stupid enough not to become educated first.

Unlike what I thought the internet would do for those who sell CAE positive and CL positive goats, NAIS will do.

Paul reread what I wrote, I agree with you. The farmer who has CL should contain the goat or kill the goat. Cull is spelled KILL to me. Sliceing and diceing, or surgical removal of abscess works, as long as kids are raised on CAE prevention and the offending stock is contained in quaranteen. But this is not what meat producers do, they let the kids nurse, they live on contaminated grounds and use vaccines which are no where near 100% effective, and they also don't sell just to terminal markets, they sell that really nice billy as a breeding buck to Jo blow down the road who doesn't know better.

At some point, I never heard of CAE or CL will end, all new buyers will be armed with tools not to contaminate their land with things like this, but also not to purchase animals with communicable, zoonic disease.

Let her inject her goats with formaline...what the site should be doing is making sure nobody buys goats from anyone who has CL, then you don't have to inject illegal foreign substances into your goats and pretend that it is OK. A selling feature even. All goats, everyones goats are livestock, unless you put them into the ground yourself, they will eventually if sold be on someones dinner table..divorce, death, loss of job, there are no forever homes or real true pet livestock. Vicki