How to choose the right buckling

[thaiblue12]

I want to get a blue eyed buckling for next year. My current buck I do not plan on using him next year with his daughters. So I want to get a non-related buckling.
I really want the blue eyes. There is a lady about 2 hours from me that had a buckling year so she has 5 blue eyed ones for me to choose from, born from Jan 6th till a couple of days ago. It is a CAE/CL free herd.
I know to look for deformities, make sure both testies are there, check the parents, actually I look at the whole herd, mom's udder.

But what else do I look at? How do I know I am not getting a dud? Sure they might be cute bouncy babies but how do you choose the right one?
Honestly when people post pictures asking for their goat to be rated I have no idea about the slope of rumps and standing posty ( what is posty??). I try to see it but really I just know when I see skinny goats, sickly looking ones or bad teats. A goat judge I shall never be

Also in his first year of breeding I though I read on here that yearlings do not produce much sperm so you have less chance of mulitples? Is that correct or am I mis-remembering? If it is true can I up his count some how?

[southerngurl]

The more goats you look at, the more you will be able to see those things. Your brain has to see so many goats to build ideas of usuals and extremes. At least, that's my theory. It worked that way for me with horses. The more horses I saw, the better I could see conformation.

Anyway, ideas are:

-Getting an experienced breeder to look at them and help you out
-Asking a breeder who is familiar with the breed what they think about the animal's pedigree
-Looking at linear appraisals and DHIR records, if available.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Make sure he isn't just blue eyed. With a trait this recessive and you really want it, than his dam and sire both should be blue eyed with multiple kids in the litters and older kids out of them with blue eyes.

Do not compromise though in udder quality, half a soccer ball in the body the other half out of the body. Teats that you can milk that point straight down, not to close together not to close to the legs on the dam.....pick the best dam period then pick her son.

Son should have two testicles in his scrotum, teats that point straight down and are well apart, really look at them use a flashlight and your glasses, you want one hole in each end. With his mouth closed but your fingers on his front bum, when you move your fingers down you should feel the front of the teeth, not the top of the teeth. When walking away from you he should walk with his back legs straight, he should not turn his hocks (pointy elbows on back of legs) towards each other. As he stands there naturally his toes should all point forward, not apart and not to the side. If you are talking nigerian (not pygmy) than he should have dairy character which includes his cannon bone length (the bone from his knees down to his ankles on his front leggs) should be longer than the bone from his point of elbow to his knee on the front leg.

Look him over, at that age he is nothing but a cinder block, why it's so important to look over his dam and any milk daughters of hers or his sires on that farm. Do you hand milk? Can you hand milk his dam? See the paperwork for yourself. See the testing results for yourself. Vicki

[thaiblue12]

Yes his parents have blue eyes and all kids have been blue eyed. I asked that one soon after asking about CAE CL and general health.
Yes Nigerian and not pygmys.
Thanks those are suggestions I can actually follow and know what I am seeing. I do worry about buying a cute but non-producing cinderblock
Will he not be producing at his best his first year and is there anything to do to help him improve it?

[moonspinner]

Are you planning on registered stock? ITA about having as many blue eyed goats in the bloodline as you can. I've had blue eyed goats with minimal be on the family tree and even when bred to blue eyes have only gotten maybe one be kid.
I personally like a string of milk stars in the generations or at least view enough udders and try to see as many in the pedigree as you can to evaluate their conformation and what they are producing.
Look for an overall smoothly blended dairy goat - no winging out at the elbow/loose shoulders, good width in both fore and rear legs, nice strong straight forelegs, upright pasterns - strong hindquarters and depth.
An extended brisket is an often overlooked trait I love, along with long body and neck and great rear angulation.
And you want a impressive set of testicles. In short, the perfect goat!

[chamoisee]

Blue eyes are recessive. If an animal has the phenotype ( physical appearance or manifestation) or a recessive gene, it *always* is homozygous for that recessive trait. This is why we don't keep animals showing a severe fault, hoping to "breed it out"; it is almost impossible to do if the parent has that trait, since every single offspring will carry that recessive trait. If the trait is one you want, such as blue eyes or a black coat, the job is made easier, but only by half. The doe has also to carry the recessive gene, or the buck will not give you blue eyed kids, and it isn't his fault.

However, I think you should reconsider breeding for blue eyes. Temple Grandin discusses the blue-eyed trait in her book, Animals in Translation and blue eyed-ness, albinism, and lack of pigmentation are all more likely to cause you a variety of problems. Yes, the eyes are pretty, but maybe they're not worth having if it means having a less robust herd which is more prone to disposition problems as well.

Lastly, blue eyes are more or less a cosmetic trait. They're the cherry on the icing on the cake. Breed for the cake (conformation, solid traits such as productivity, hardiness, adaptation to your clime, and so on) first. This is my opinion. A lot of people like to breed for coat pattern or color, but unless you can get everything you need in a buck PLUS the color (and be objective enough not to get barn blind the moment you see that beautiful color!), it's best to go with the more sensible, boring plan. Can't tell you how many breeders I've met who are so proud of their doe because she has spots, is solid black, or red chamoisee, or strking in some fashion...and the doe has a severe under or overbite, doesn't meet breed standards, or has a weak topline or crummy legs....

My little soapbox, sorry.

[JR05]

Since you are buying a cute little bundle,that in 3-4 months could possibly not come up to your expectations, why don't you pick the 2 best ones with the qualities you want.Pick the one that grows into the breeder you want then you are not stuck waiting another year for a new one. The one that doesn't measure up can become the others buddy. I have gotten a buck before that looked great as a little guy then grew into something I didn't want. Some traits do show up later that might not be good ones.Just a thought from past experience.

jr05

[thaiblue12]

But I do want the blue eyes. I am meeting my markets needs with them. I have yet to sell a goat that is actually being milked. Most people that buy from me are looking for cute little friendly goats that they MIGHT one day milk. If they want to buy expensive little pets and treat them well who am I to tell them no?
One lady has purchased 3 of my babies and already wants a 4th, in a color she does not yet have. They are pets to them and will probably never be milked. That is her choice.

I breed first for health, then for milk ( udder teats etc) then for color. It is what sells in my market around here. I have been asked many times if I have any blue eyed Nigies. So if they are healthy and sound why not play to it? Plus I have to admit I like the look as well, I know it is cosmetic.
I do not see how a black goat with blue eyes can be an albino. Sure they do not have the same eye pigmentation but that does not make them an albino.
Any goat can have a deformity, parrot mouth, cleft plate and etc. That is why I want to pick the right one who will be sound and produce well. I will not fault him for not throwing blue eyes. I understand how the blue eyed genetics work in humans and I figured it could be the same for animals as well.
No need to be sorry you feel how you feel and produce what meets your needs and market.


You know JR you really should not encourage people to buy more goats lol Jeez we do not need another boy around here. I do have a 4 year old buck that produces well, so if this boy turns out to be a dud, I do have him just will not use him with his daughters.

[moonspinner]

The blue eyes as related to health issues is interesting, but I would need to research it. I have never seen the topic discussed among nigerian breeders and so far have not heard of NDs with blue eyes or their progeny experiencing any more problems than non-blue eyes.
Not at all to disagree with the theory, just would like to explore it more.
From my experience, I do agree that the pet buyers of nigerians do seem to like blue eyes and flashy color. I have some blue eyes in my herd but only after considerable searching to find quality animals that first met my requirements of bloodline, milking and strong conformation.

[julieq]

We raised Nigerians for quite some time when blue eyes were popular. We always chose the bucklings by looking at the dams and sires first and judging them. That's still no guarantee that your new buckling will be as good has his parents, or even fertile, but it's a start. As we grew in experience, we found that we wanted the milk supply, so we went with Nubians and now just breed for conformation, milk production and general health in our goats (no matter what the color!)

[chamoisee]

Here is a link to an article by Temple Grandin: http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html

[chamoisee]

And a link to an excerpt from her book, the part about blue eyes and albinism: http://books.google.com/books?id=1WU...um=1&ct=result

[thaiblue12]

I read the article and it is about horses and their genetics, while it does mention other animals in relation to the study but I saw nothing on goats.
I also read parts of the excerpts from the book and goats are not mentioned that I can find. I am really tired so I might have missed it. Mentioned were things I do know, like white cats with blue eyes can be deaf and etc. But I read nothing on goats, so I researched it. I found nothing at all no matter how I phrased it about goats with blue eyes having genetic problems, albanism and etc. Nor in my goat book. Had I found something I would have researched some more before I decided on wether or not to get blue eyed kids and asked others with blue eyed Nigies.

Here is what I found:

Unlike the case in humans, blue eyes in the goat are dominant. Nigerians aren't the only blue-eyed breed; blue eyes are also reported in the Angora and fainting goat.

Because the blue eyes are dominant, a blue-eyed goat bred to a brown-eyed goat can produce blue-eyed kids. Two brown-eyed goats cannot produce any blue-eyed kids. Let's look more closely at the genetic possibilities for eye color inheritance in goats.
( chart I did not bother to copy)
One possibility that should be noted is that some goats have eyes in which only part of the iris is blue (this also occurs in dogs.) Such animals are genetically blue-eyed and can have offspring with completely blue eyes.