Raising Dairy Goats Naturally

[luvmygoats3]

Does anyone have any experience raising lactating does naturally. I'm concerned about what goes into the grain and have thought about growing some things here on our farm. Any suggestions???

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You are far enough north to be able to really do this. Just make sure your decisions are based on feeding a ruminant and not so much of the hocus pocus type stuff.

Your goats need roughage first, usually provided in hay. There is little 'oraganic' hay because of fertilizers so make sure what you are paying for is actually what you think it is. Our woods and pastures are easy to grow organic because we don't improve them as single species grass. But when you do buy that bail of single species grass know it's likely been sprayed, fertilized etc...to keep that very unnatural single speices of grass living in one area weed or dominant local grass 'free'.

You can so raise goats without a bite of grain if you can't purchase 'organic' grain, which is expensive and shipping is as much as the cost of the bag. I have a friend who does this.

Also know that natural also means that you live with death. Mortality rates will be high as you bring in new stock, that stresses from the move. If you don't treat them you will lose stock. This is acceptable to some. It isn't to others.

There is not one thing natural about closing a gate or fencing around livestock, livestock that is also not in a wild state, but has been through years of breeding up for more and more milk. It's a really pathetic milker who only has enough milk for her 2 kids. The act of milking extra milk is not natural either. But if you don't take the extra colostrum the doe will dry up half her udder, if you don't then milk her empty for several weeks until the kids appetite increases she will have less milk if not catch mastitis from leaking milk.

It's not natural for a doe to have her kids in a barn with other goats, she would go off to a clean area and have her kids and plant them there. Go back and nurse until they are big enough to follow her around. We have kids in barn where there is alot of adult manure around, even in the pastures. Then we balk at worming or cocci prevention.....leaving you with smaller does each year, from stunting, if not just plain over death of lots of perweaned kids.

Make sure also you understand about the defficencies in soils and your water, and the high metabolisim of your goat and the excess of minerals she needs that isn't going to be in a book, only shared with you by those in your area successfully raising dairy goats.

Learn everything you can about basic management, then tweak it as you go. Vicki

[billooo2]

I am not sure what you mean by "natural."

There is a book, "Natural Goat Care," by Pat Coleby. She talks a lot about providing adequate mineral supplements. She says that we have altered the goats' natural environment. They are normally browsers, and they could select the plants that gave them what they needed. We have eliminated a lot of the options, so we need to offer supplements to replace those things.

She says that if a goat has adequate levels of the trace minerals, then they have fewer problems with parasites.

If you are looking for organic, then Maine has a great organization, "Maine Organic Gardeners and Farmers Association." I will try to paste a link to their web site:

http://www.mofga.org/

They would be able to assist you by providing information about organic guidelines, and they could probably recommend some sources for organic hay. Organic grain may be more scarce just because there is not much grain farming in Maine.

[luvmygoats3]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You are far enough north to be able to really do this. Just make sure your decisions are based on feeding a ruminant and not so much of the hocus pocus type stuff.

Your goats need roughage first, usually provided in hay. There is little 'oraganic' hay because of fertilizers so make sure what you are paying for is actually what you think it is. Our woods and pastures are easy to grow organic because we don't improve them as single species grass. But when you do buy that bail of single species grass know it's likely been sprayed, fertilized etc...to keep that very unnatural single speices of grass living in one area weed or dominant local grass 'free'.

You can so raise goats without a bite of grain if you can't purchase 'organic' grain, which is expensive and shipping is as much as the cost of the bag. I have a friend who does this.

Also know that natural also means that you live with death. Mortality rates will be high as you bring in new stock, that stresses from the move. If you don't treat them you will lose stock. This is acceptable to some. It isn't to others.

There is not one thing natural about closing a gate or fencing around livestock, livestock that is also not in a wild state, but has been through years of breeding up for more and more milk. It's a really pathetic milker who only has enough milk for her 2 kids. The act of milking extra milk is not natural either. But if you don't take the extra colostrum the doe will dry up half her udder, if you don't then milk her empty for several weeks until the kids appetite increases she will have less milk if not catch mastitis from leaking milk.

It's not natural for a doe to have her kids in a barn with other goats, she would go off to a clean area and have her kids and plant them there. Go back and nurse until they are big enough to follow her around. We have kids in barn where there is alot of adult manure around, even in the pastures. Then we balk at worming or cocci prevention.....leaving you with smaller does each year, from stunting, if not just plain over death of lots of perweaned kids.

Make sure also you understand about the defficencies in soils and your water, and the high metabolisim of your goat and the excess of minerals she needs that isn't going to be in a book, only shared with you by those in your area successfully raising dairy goats.

Learn everything you can about basic management, then tweak it as you go. Vicki

I should have explained a little more... I give my Lamancha goats free choice minerals, baking soda, lots of fresh water and all the hay they can eat. I worm them once a week with a wormer I purchased from Hoeggers. I feed them grain only on the milk stand in the morning and evening when I milk. I would like to get away from the grain. I don't want to take it away and hurt the goat or milk supply. the goats are healthy and happy and I would like to keep it that way. My husband is not a big believer in grain for ruminants. We have Beef cows and they are fed hay only in the winter and graze in the summer months. They are very healthy, we have had many compliments on them. I'm afraid if I don't grain my goats I won't be getting any milk. I guess I will have to look into this further.

[luvmygoats3]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You are far enough north to be able to really do this. Just make sure your decisions are based on feeding a ruminant and not so much of the hocus pocus type stuff.

Your goats need roughage first, usually provided in hay. There is little 'oraganic' hay because of fertilizers so make sure what you are paying for is actually what you think it is. Our woods and pastures are easy to grow organic because we don't improve them as single species grass. But when you do buy that bail of single species grass know it's likely been sprayed, fertilized etc...to keep that very unnatural single speices of grass living in one area weed or dominant local grass 'free'.

You can so raise goats without a bite of grain if you can't purchase 'organic' grain, which is expensive and shipping is as much as the cost of the bag. I have a friend who does this.

Also know that natural also means that you live with death. Mortality rates will be high as you bring in new stock, that stresses from the move. If you don't treat them you will lose stock. This is acceptable to some. It isn't to others.

There is not one thing natural about closing a gate or fencing around livestock, livestock that is also not in a wild state, but has been through years of breeding up for more and more milk. It's a really pathetic milker who only has enough milk for her 2 kids. The act of milking extra milk is not natural either. But if you don't take the extra colostrum the doe will dry up half her udder, if you don't then milk her empty for several weeks until the kids appetite increases she will have less milk if not catch mastitis from leaking milk.

It's not natural for a doe to have her kids in a barn with other goats, she would go off to a clean area and have her kids and plant them there. Go back and nurse until they are big enough to follow her around. We have kids in barn where there is alot of adult manure around, even in the pastures. Then we balk at worming or cocci prevention.....leaving you with smaller does each year, from stunting, if not just plain over death of lots of perweaned kids.

Make sure also you understand about the defficencies in soils and your water, and the high metabolisim of your goat and the excess of minerals she needs that isn't going to be in a book, only shared with you by those in your area successfully raising dairy goats.

Learn everything you can about basic management, then tweak it as you go. Vicki

I should have explained a little more... I give my Lamancha goats free choice minerals, baking soda, lots of fresh water and all the hay they can eat. I worm them once a week with a wormer I purchased from Hoeggers. I feed them grain only on the milk stand in the morning and evening when I milk. I would like to get away from the grain. I don't want to take it away and hurt the goat or milk supply. the goats are healthy and happy and I would like to keep it that way. My husband is not a big believer in grain for ruminants. We have Beef cows and they are fed hay only in the winter and graze in the summer months. They are very healthy, we have had many compliments on them. I'm afraid if I don't grain my goats I won't be getting any milk. I guess I will have to look into this further.

[chamoisee]

My experience raising them naturally is that an awful lot of them die, because try as we might, we can't really raise them 100% naturally. They weren't meant to eat hay, they were meant to eat browse. They weren't meant to live in barn, but in rocky hilly areas with dry ground...where parasites can't get as good a foothold. And on and on.

Frankly, I don't recommend it. Try to find a happy medium.

Dealing with butchering your best doe because mastitis meds aren't natural, watching perfectly good kids die from parasite loads (I am far north too) and cocci, or from infections that could be treated with antibiotics...it's heartbreaking. And many of the natural methods, like warm compresses only for mastitis, just don't work.

Of course, in a natural breed, they'd be less likely to get mastitis...but domesticated breeds aren't natural.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

But your husband raises beef cattle who nurse a calf for how long and have how many calves a year? Your dairy goats are dairy ruminants who are expected to give you 2 or 3 kids each year and milk for 10 months. That's more product, even weaning weight of kids per size of animal is more, and if you really gave your goats the credit they deserved in the milk they can/could give you in replacement for house milk, cheesse, yougurt, kefir and soap and tolietries that you would never have to buy from the grocery store again, their bucklings for meat and replacement doelings sold for the money they are worth...your husband would see how grain is a value added product your goats need to have...to make more milk, more kids, more money.

Certainly he would't have compliments on his dairy cattle if he raised them that way It's like raising boers, they kid out two kids every year and nurse for 12 weeks....a dairy doe can do that standing on her head. But feed her like a boer, and you are in trouble.

You could learn to fecal and ditch the herbal wormer and that would save you a ton of money right there. Take the baking soda out of the barn, goats not fed alot of molassed grain don't need it and it also takes away from the minerals you are feeding. Any well cured grass hay has all the bicarb a doe needs to keep her rumen funcitoning normally.

If you take away the grain it's not like you won't get any milk, just increase the alfalfa. The girls will just not have the energy to kid in your winters, or keep weight on very well in your winters, but you could manage around even that with kidding in the late spring/ summer or even fall kiddings.

Vicki

[steff bugielski]

Your herbal wormer is doing more than keep worms away in the north. It is helping her every step of the way. That is part of the reason you get compliments on your goats. I bet they are not skinny. Bet they have nice shiny coats. Bet they milk great. It has to do with overall good health from those herbs. And not having to deal with poison in their system from chemical wormers.
In Maine you should be able to find organic grains. I know there is a place in vermont,Lighting tree. (maybe is the name) I would not eliminate the grain it is what she needs to give you milk. Your hay might very well be organic, mine is. If you know the farmer you get it from he should be able to tell you what he puts on it. My hay guy has not amended his field for years and something wonderful is happening. The hay is slowly being replaced with clover and other things. The goats love it and it offers them a greater variety in their diet. I have a doe who refuses all grain but eats hay all day and she still has milk for two kids and me.
You could add alfalfa pellets but chances are they are full of pesticides and chemicals.

[luvmygoats3]

Originally Posted by steff bugielski

Your herbal wormer is doing more than keep worms away in the north. It is helping her every step of the way. That is part of the reason you get compliments on your goats. I bet they are not skinny. Bet they have nice shiny coats. Bet they milk great. It has to do with overall good health from those herbs. And not having to deal with poison in their system from chemical wormers.
In Maine you should be able to find organic grains. I know there is a place in vermont,Lighting tree. (maybe is the name) I would not eliminate the grain it is what she needs to give you milk. Your hay might very well be organic, mine is. If you know the farmer you get it from he should be able to tell you what he puts on it. My hay guy has not amended his field for years and something wonderful is happening. The hay is slowly being replaced with clover and other things. The goats love it and it offers them a greater variety in their diet. I have a doe who refuses all grain but eats hay all day and she still has milk for two kids and me.
You could add alfalfa pellets but chances are they are full of pesticides and chemicals.

Thanks for the info. I'm glad someone undestands where I'm coming from. What breed is the doe that you have that will not eat grain? just curious. I Have LaManchas and they are healthy and good producers. I'll look into the organic grain. We thought of the alfalfa pellets but was also concerned about the pesticides and chemicals.

[Mrs. Jo]

Originally Posted by luvmygoats3

Thanks for the info. I'm glad someone undestands where I'm coming from.

It's not that we don't understand where you are coming from- everyone wants healthy goats with the least amount of chemicals used-it's just that folks who have had goats for more than a few years know that herbal wormers are not what they are said to be.
People who make herbal worming concoctions rely on word of mouth testimony to sell their product. The people who are vulnerable to falling for this the most are beginners. If their products are so good; if their products are the real answer to the worm problem why don't they seek testing for them and a wider market? They could make a fortune selling their magic mixes to a pharmaceutical company, and we would all benefit from the research they could do with them. Instead, they make a smaller fortune selling them to beginners, and other people who think modern medicine is always "poison." Of course, snake oil salesmen do the same thing, and I personally think they are seeking to take advantage of peoples fears but whatever; "different strokes for different folks."



ATTRA is the best place to research alternative methods and then you need to hook up with organic producers in your area and have a good look at their animals. If you like what you see in their animals then you might be able to reproduce it on your farm, but I would definitely work with someone who you can visit and talk to.

[luvmygoats3]

I only have 3 goats at this time ( 2 are due to kid in March) and Have only owned them since last spring. I just want to get on the right track now. I understand there are people out there who like to sell things, I'm just using the same wormer that these goats have been on since birth. I'm sure I have alot to learn and look forward to all the advice I can get, that's why i'm happy i found this forum. Everyones situation is different and I respect that.

[luvmygoats3]

ATTRA is the best place to research alternative methods and then you need to hook up with organic producers in your area and have a good look at their animals. If you like what you see in their animals then you might be able to reproduce it on your farm, but I would definitely work with someone who you can visit and talk to.

Thanks for the info. I have been looking at the website. Any advice is appreciated... I have also contacted www.mofga.org

[luvmygoats3]

Hi Vicki, thanks for the info. We appreciate all the info that comes our way. We have 3 Lamancha does right now and have only owned them since last spring, so we just want to get on the right track and keep them healthy and happy and producing good milk for us. Two are getting ready to freshen (March). I wanted to get goats and alot of thought went into this, it was a big decision for me so I just want to make sure they're properly cared for. I enjoy having them and look forward to milking time. I can see how easily it would be to end up with a herd. They're my babies

[XCricketX]

Just curious... but are "Molly's Herbal Wormers" from Fiasco farms just a snake-oil salesman concoction based on word of mouth as well? I've not tried these yet... but I thought they were pretty reputable.

I have a natural worming program for my meat rabbits that is not perfected, but definitely has benefits from my own test studies, and yes, I do fecal.

I do believe that some herbals work. Herbs are not advertised to pharmaceutical companies in that way by concoction makers because the laws do not allow them to make a profit in that way... but let me tell you... pharmaceutical companies DO have a hand in some herbal companies.

Vicki is right, our goats are just not in natural environments, and finding decent food for them is near impossible. Sometimes we just have to rely on modern techniques when full prevention (or total naturality) is not there.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Cricket if my goats lived in my rabbit cages, in the chicken house, with no access to the ground I think even herbal wormers would work here LOL! vicki

[XCricketX]

LOL yes... now if we can just make the goaties as clean! ^_^

[steff bugielski]

I have used Molly's for over two years now with great success. It is the same for humans, some want that easy pill to cure what ails them, some prefer natural herbs to help them. I used no chemicals in my body so it is natural for me to find the herbs for the goats. The whole internal cleansing is the key to the goats low parasites. That is what Molly's does. I also do not like the idea of only worm when they have a lot of worms. Their system is on this roller coaster. On the herbs It is given weekly as a preventative. Fecals show very little worm load on a more consistent basis. I love them and encourage every one to at least try them.

The doe who will not eat grain is a Alpine/boer cross. I wish she would but she refuses. She is thin but still nursing kids. The only thing she will eat is corn so I know it is not her teeth. I think she is just picky.

[Mrs. Jo]

Originally Posted by XCricketX

Just curious... but are "Molly's Herbal Wormers" from Fiasco farms just a snake-oil salesman concoction based on word of mouth as well? I've not tried these yet... but I thought they were pretty reputable.

Personally, I don't think so. We used Molly's for two or three years and fecaled quite a lot. There were time when the fecal egg count may have gone down, but it never went down as much as when we used ivermectin, or valbazen. (when I fecal I look for a big reduction in eggs.) Most of the time we had other situations going on on our farm that just as easily could be responsible for lower fecal egg counts, and we couldn't prove in our own minds that the herbs were responsible for the slightly lowered results or not. And then there is a lot of guessing that goes on with herbs...no one knows how potent they are...how much of the herb is in the product...and ultimately how much has a negative effect on parasites...This is my big gripe. There are no standards and have been no studies that determine what the "dose" is. I happen to like research and usually if a researched product is bad we can figure that out by looking at the information we can collect on it.

I have another gripe with Molly. She uses Chrissy Orr's "study" to prove her product. You know, the one where herbals were proved to be better than ivermectin ect??? Well, maybe she doesn't realize it, but this "study" was actually a science report done by a 11 year old girl. Some of the worms she claims to have seen in her fecals cannot be seen in normal fecals (two types of lungworms) and then she lists at least one tapeworm (ivermectin doesn't have any effect on tapes) and so on...If a pharmaceutical company used a study like this to prove their product, do you know what would happen to them???

Interestingly, Hoegger's also uses the same "study" to claim their herbal wormer works. They have just taken out her name and altered some of her information, and then claimed that it was a summary from the Untited Caprine News...it is the same source, however.


I'll give you an example of what I am talking about. We changed minerals during that time and the goats really respond better to the new minerals. It was apparent they absorbed more copper from them. Now they looked way better, so were the new minerals responsible for that or was it the herbs? Or when we went through a dry spell? eggs dry up when there is no moisture to allow the larvae to move so goats can eat them...was it the dry spell, or was it the herbs? Or we cleaned up the pens and made sure no goats were eating off the ground? People whom I have talked to will give the credit for their lower fecal egg counts to the herbs, rather than think of the over all picture on their farm, or what other things they might be doing that lower the amount of re-infection that happens.

Ultimately we have found that the goats do better with good food, good minerals and a worming when they needed it. Usually just twice a year. Easy peasy, and the goats don't suffer from it in the least.


Sorry for the sarcasm is my earlier post.. I need to cut that out.